Get more boost from your Roe Blower!

[plumcrazy]

joseph, tell us how you REALLY feel..

hang in there kenny, im sure larry will get it fixed.

" Sure, 2500 for the AEM + accessories is a BETTER way to go..."

I was quoted a much higher price by my tuner and was told not to tell anyone the special pricing because it was so low.

[JohnnyBravo]

Well said Johnnybravo. I think Joe mentioned that your car is right after mine!!!!!

I went out for a night on the town with Joe a few weeks ago, had a blast. We will have to meet up at his shop one of these days.

martyb

Are you sure that's what you heard?

Regardless of the timing, I'm looking forward to seeing what this car can do with head/cam/blower and Joe's tuning. He doesn't know it yet, but I'm going to push for a late October completion date because we have a HUGE F-body track day in November. Our local track will be rented for the entire day for this private event. It's always a great turnout and they limit the number of vehicles so everyone gets PLENTY of passes in.

I'm hopeful that with some cooler weather in November and the new setup, the car will post some great times.

[martyb]

Oh yeah, I am sure that's what I heard!!! Just kidding, my car will be down there sometime in the fall, but I know there are a few ahead of me. I would like to have it done before I put it away for the winter.

Joe has a healthy business for sure. My car is a gen 1, so I am hoping for around 650 rwhp when all is said and done. He may even talk me into a little nitrous shot on top of the heads/cam, who knows??

All I know is we ended up at a bar just down the street from his house at about 1am, and I felt like I was back in college! Had an absolute blast. Too bad I had to be up early the next morning to present a sales pitch to a new client, we may have been out all night otherwise!

martyb

[Joseph Dell]

Call napa in smyrna ... Ask for chris. Less than 2500 shipped. No viper tax! Woodhouse tried to give me a 'dealer price' of 2800 when he had one to get rid of... F-that!!!!!!!!

As for the parts, I spent not much for a 3.5 bar AEM MAP, the AEM Serial Gauge, the AEM (which includes the 2 wide bands) and lastly OVERNIGHT shipping from CA. 2856.62 for 8a delivery the next day. Ordered at 5p on a tues, received at 8a on the next day.

thhhhhhhhhhhhhhhpt!!!!!!!

[Schulmann]

If you wanted a high-HP daily driver, there are pleanty of "established" combos that work. But you wanted [you really really really] wanted to do this w/ a ROE. And that is like going out and buying a picture tube TV today to watch sports: it has its limits. And you are seeing those.

Joseph, what type of issue did you have that makes you so upset about the Roe supercharger ?


This guy has really basic issues. He has got a great package but poorly tuned. If tuning was made up of 10 stages, this guy is at stage 1. He is really at the basics. For most people supercharging starts and stops at installation. They forget the tuning stage which is far more complexe and requires time, knowledge and a lot of experience.

I have put more than 20K mi on my supercharged Viper in two years. It runs great and is a good "daily" driver. Only with time I learned to master the tuning principles. Looking backup I had too high expectations on day one: I wanted to be the fastest right away instead of mastering the basics. I was poorly advised and supported. Fortunately Sean helped me a lot and I can tell you that he spent a LOT of time with me over the phone.

The tunner who was supposed to help me later turned to Paxtron saying Roe was a scrap. He installed two Paxtron superchargers in my club. Both of them broke down causing sever domage around the engin. So tunning is really about experience.

Roe, Paxtron, Catellano Turbo, NOS are all great products as long as you know how to tune them.

[BlueGTS]

Kenny, I have been very interested in your saga from the start as I run a ROE myself. I appreciate you posting both your good and bad experiences as it helps the community to hear it. I have to admit that from your first posts I thought you were given very optimist HP goals which would be hard to reach without nitrous. Now that you have your car back with less HP than promised I would at least expect it to run perfectly. Not having the drivability correct is ridiculous. WOT tuning is the easiest to tune; it’s the drivability that takes time and patience. If I were you I would not throw more money at the car. I would have the VEC tuned by someone else and see what you can get out of your current setup. If you are willing to spend another $3000 on parts, maybe you should think about stepping up to a small TT setup.
I am thinking about sticking with low 600’s even though I know the number is not very impressive. However, it runs like stock and I am not sure the added HP is worth the headaches. Please let us know how the Joe’s tuning turns out. Thanks again for posting.


Joseph Dell, can you give some more information on the “V-notch” problem as I have never heard of it. Under what conditions does the problem occur?

[Joseph Dell]

I don't hate the ROE. It has its place. unforutnately, that isn't in the 800+hp club. it just can't handle it.

The VEC2, on the other hand, I have found to be easy to tune (aka: I like tuning with it) but in tunes that are desined to be "on the edge", i don't trust it.

the v-notch issue is when the car misfires at high RPM (usally 4800rpm, 5200rpm, or 5600rpm) for some unknown reason. the reason ROE doesn't really know. but it isn't the unit... it is the design. it doesn't happen with ALL VEC2's, but it happens w/ many. the "fix" [which is based on the theoretical cause] is to put a resistor in-line on the IAT sensor. But there are some cars that this NEVER cured the problem for. I'm surprised that there isn't a pending lawsuit b/c of it as people for a looooooooooooooong time were told "this isn't a problem w/ the design" when it fact it is.

do a SEARCH on vec2 v-notch and you'll see some info on it.

I feel badly for Kenny... ~30k and a car isn't running well... totally sucks. why is this the case? part of it is the overall architecture. ROEs just aren't designed to flow _that_ much air. that's all.

I've installed a few and there are some really faaaaaaaaast cars running ROEs. But it wasn't designed to be a decked-out, knock-down, drag-out, super-high HP bolt on.

JD

[BlueGTS]

JD, the ROE has its place. It is an inexpensive 600rwhp blower. Honestly to go from 610rwhp to 710rwhp on a ROE you will spend more than the price of the blower itself. That shows it is running out of efficiency. I personally have to complaints with mine and Sean's customer service is second to none.

As for the high RPM misfires, what did they show up as when you were logging? Was it audible or did you look at the log files to see it?

[Simms]

This guy has really basic issues. He has got a great package but poorly tuned. If tuning was made up of 10 stages, this guy is at stage 1. He is really at the basics. For most people supercharging starts and stops at installation. They forget the tuning stage which is far more complex and requires time, knowledge and a lot of experience.

Do you really think one of the best Roe tuners would let the car leave his shop with "basic issues"? There have been numerous Roe cars out of that shop (daily drivers and racers)that run like a clock. Including mine (not nut swinging here either, just stating facts). My car was tuned in Florida, not touched since and runs perfect at the track, in traffic, at 50 degrees or 90 degrees.

As JD said, Kenny's package is not the norm. I'm sure the drivablility issues will be straightened out. As a side note to Kenny, a large portion of the idle hang issues can come from the 70mm throttle bodies.

My Viper couldn't even go 1.5 miles before throwing a code! Code P0174 this time. Code 0171 has been thrown multiple times before, this is a new code.

It also stalled out in traffic waiting for the light to change - the idle at 750 RPM does not appear to be high enough for the cam. The idle got progressively rougher at the stop light and dropped lower and lower until it got just above 500 RPM, then it stalled.

The surging problem is still so bad that I'm afraid to drive it.

The roll bar is hitting the passenger side door, which is why there is so much noise coming from there.

My Viper does not even close comes to the promise that it will be daily driver reliable and will throw no codes and will have at least the high 700's in power.

[Larry Macedo]

WOW! I had one chance to update Kenny's cards and here we are...

[Larry Macedo]

Kenny,

I agree, Joe should fix your problem using the VEC2.

[Schulmann]

I don't hate the ROE. It has its place. unforutnately, that isn't in the 800+hp club. it just can't handle it.

Okay the Roe SC is not in the 800+hp club.
But there aren't many cars on the street running on 93oct fuel being able to handle 800rwhp. Most of them cost over 500K$. With our Vipers we are doing great.

But already 700-799.99 HP is a lot of power for a "stock" Roe SC Viper ....
The Stock Michelins can handle around 650rwtq. After even in 4th gear tires starts spinning. This hunt for more than 800rwhp is crazy.

I think many of us suffers from a serious sickness.
Using Roe supercharger we all got sever HP addiction.
I do remember the days when a weak 520hp would have made me happy.

We just broke a differential this week-end. It could not handle the 900rwtq ...

As a cure we should all rent a Toyota Prius for the week-end. After the Prius even a stock viper will feel crazy fast.

[99 R/T 10]

Schulmann,
Need a diff? Got a diff. PM me.

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Kenny,

I agree, Joe should fix your problem using the VEC2.

Larry,

Isn't it YOUR problem? So if Joe is going to fix your tuning issue, does that mean you will be paying the bill?

This was a poorly thought out response, if your approach to a disgruntaled customer is to pawn them off, it doesnt speak highly for you.

Sean Roe has gotten utterly SLAMMED by people who have had issues with their configurations, and you know what Sean's response has been? Something along the lines of "Ok, now that you have gotten that out of your system, lets get your car fixed, give me a call I want to try a few things."

Support AFTER the sale is the BEST Judge of Character and Ethics for a Company and its owner(s).

Jon

Sir Larry Macedo is still working with me to get the problems fixed so I can have a daily driver reliable Viper that throws no codes again. He has addressed some other issues with me privately. He should hopefully be getting my VEC2 cards back today so he can make some adjustments to make my Viper safe to drive by the Chrysler Classic in Columbus, Ohio this weekend.

Kenny,

I agree, Joe should fix your problem using the VEC2.

Thanks, Larry, I will look into doing that.

[Larry Macedo]

Kenny,

What kind of street drivability problems are you having?

High end miss?
Partial throttle stumble?
Poor transition from vaccuum to positive manifold pressure?

With all the time and money you have invested with your tuner, I would have hoped for 100% flawless performance out of that beast.

You don't want to attack me in any forum, Little Man!

[Larry Macedo]

Joe is the man. And he can fix your problems.

Without making you feel worse than you already do...

Your combo is a new combo that had never been tested... you even said in a previous post that you were taking off the stryker heads! What inspired you to keep them (BTW- if you want to sell them, i'm probably buying a set this week so pipe up soon)...

But the truth is that the tuninng w/ an AEM is just as easy as w/ a VEC2 IF (and i scream IF !!! ) if you know what you are doing. And to all those who say that the VEC2 can't handle it... well, the VEC2 has some limitations but MOST can be worked around. Sure, 2500 for the AEM + accessories is a BETTER way to go, but there is no reason (unless you are running really big injectors) that the VEC2 can't handle it.

I don't personally trust the VEC2, but that is b/c I've done a boat load of data logging and the V-notch problem is quite real... and the "fix" for it (mod the IAT sensor) just tells the computer that the car is always taking in air under 95 degrees. Not a very good hack...

What size injector are you using?

Idle problem / surge probably = vacuume leak.

But that is my limited knowledge of the problem.

If you wanted a high-HP daily driver, there are pleanty of "established" combos that work. But you wanted [you really really really] wanted to do this w/ a ROE. And that is like going out and buying a picture tube TV today to watch sports: it has its limits. And you are seeing those.

I feel for you. I really do. I've spent my share of $$$ being the 'first' to do things. And I've made my mistakes. But you want the truth? sell the ROE for 4k, but a new paxton for 7k, don't buy the AEM, get it installed in a weekend, tune it, and be happy. you'll be MORE streetable than you were before and you'll have something that you can grow with.

But I'm just an engineer and it's your money. for _whatever_ reason you wanted ROE. If you _still_ want ROE, then accept the fact that you'll never have the power of the other guys. If you keep the ROE, then either let Larry, your original tuner, make it right... or give it to Joe. Both are stellar guys. Both will make it right. But now that you've opened this can of worms RE: Larry, you really ought to give him the chance to fix it.

But it's your money. Do your research, make your decision, then go out and drive.

And it is never to late to change your mind. besides... you paid by CC, right? Go dispute it... If you did a cash / wire payment, shame on you!!!

Just my .02...

And worth taking a break from working in order to respond.

Good luck!

JD

Thank you, JD! Yes, this is something new and altogether different. I've had one chance since dropping the car off in OH to make changes. Since the last changes were made to the cards, Kenny stated the drivability had improved across the board. There is a lot more involved here and a lot more left in the car.

[Larry Macedo]

Larry,

Isn't it YOUR problem? So if Joe is going to fix your tuning issue, does that mean you will be paying the bill?

This was a poorly thought out response, if your approach to a disgruntaled customer is to pawn them off, it doesnt speak highly for you.

Sean Roe has gotten utterly SLAMMED by people who have had issues with their configurations, and you know what Sean's response has been? Something along the lines of "Ok, now that you have gotten that out of your system, lets get your car fixed, give me a call I want to try a few things."

Support AFTER the sale is the BEST Judge of Character and Ethics for a Company and its owner(s).

Jon

I support my clients and friends. Ask them!

[JohnnyBravo]

You don't want to attack me in any forum, Little Man!

Wow. I certainly didn't see an attack against you in my comments, but I sure as hell don't like the tone of voice you're taking with me in yours.

I asked a simple question and then expressed my surprise that Kenny CLEARLY didn't get what he paid for. His post about how disappointed he was with the finished product speaks volumes. Paragraph after paragraph of problems and issues that he had with his car from the moment it was delivered. All I said was that "I would have hoped for 100% flawless performance". I didn't attack you. I didn't blame you. I didn't even mention you. I simply showed some empathy for a fellow Viper owner. However, it sounds like your conscience must be getting to you.

That being said, I can assure you that you don't want to start a pissing contest with me. It will not turn out the way you would want it to. All you're doing by calling me names is showing more of your true colors. And after the $30K "disapointment" that Kenny outlined in his previous posts, including ANOTHER one today, it's probably not in your best interest to add to insult to injury by being an a$$hole.

All my warmest regards,
JB

[Larry Macedo]

Joe,

You clearly stated that my client didn't get what he paid for, did you not? I can flame all day, but I keep my mouth shut until provoked. I feel good about the numbers from the car and know it has more in it. As for the drivability, yes, it needs some work and I'm doing my best from 1k miles away. You can throw anything you want at me, I have broad shoulders, baby!

[Schulmann]

Guys, this thread was very interesting until now.
First time I see a thread going positive for so long.
It is useless to go agressive.

Sometimes things don't work as we would expect them to work for whatever raison. It is good to share our opinion about the problems so we can fix them easier.

Larry seems to be highly willing to fix Kenny's Viper.
Kenny was disappointed and we advised him. He has got a great package and it needs to be tuned. That's it.

So instead of blaiming each other, try guys tell us what are your issues and somebody will try to advise how to fix them.

[JohnnyBravo]

Joe,

You clearly stated that my client didn't get what he paid for, did you not? I can flame all day, but I keep my mouth shut until provoked. I feel good about the numbers from the car and know it has more in it. As for the drivability, yes, it needs some work and I'm doing my best from 1k miles away. You can throw anything you want at me, I have broad shoulders, baby!

Larry,

Maybe you should re-read what I said. I had assumed you read it because you quoted it right before you started calling me names.

Kenny,

What kind of street drivability problems are you having?

High end miss?
Partial throttle stumble?
Poor transition from vaccuum to positive manifold pressure?

With all the time and money you have invested with your tuner, I would have hoped for 100% flawless performance out of that beast.

I defy you to point out in that post where I said anything about "not getting what he paid for". In fact, I'll defy you to point out where I ever even mentioned your name. I'll agree with you that Kenny used the "broken promises" and "not getting what he paid for" language in his post. But I certainly didn't use it in mine. I'd contend that Kenny making that statement is actually much worse than had I actually made it. After all, he is the customer, not me.

I'm glad you feel good about the numbers. Whether Kenny "feels good about them" is apparently another story. I personally don't care, although I will have to admit that I was a little underwhelmed by them considering the amount of time, parts, and money that went into the build. But that's neither here nor there. In addition, I guess I'm confused as to why you believe there is still "more in it". Does that mean that you knew it left your shop without being tuned to it's full potential? That you knew you were leaving power/drivability on the table? Or do you mean that it was perfect when it left, but something has changed between Florida and Kenny's house during transport?

When my car leaves a shop, I expect it to be running to its full potential (barring some upgrade which I opted not to make). I don't want the car to come home with XXX hp, but a promise that it "has more in it". If it has more in it, then I bloody well want it out of it. But maybe that's just me.

In conclusion, you can feel guilty all you want about the build that you did. I had nothing to do with it and I wasn't the one who started this topic. It was one of YOUR CUSTOMERS who came forward to let the board know all the problems he was having. I didn't attack you. I didn't need to. Your cutomer's testimonial speaks for itself. And now that I've actually seen how you talk to people and have read your "fine, take it to Joe" type attitude, I don't think you need to say much more. Your work here is done.

[Mr Hemi Head]

Kenny this is your opportunity to learn the VEC II software.
Joe mentioned how surging can be the result of a vacuum leak. I would like to add that anything that causes a lean condition will make the engine surge or stumble.

It was mentioned that the VEC does not adjust to ambient temps very well. I would like to ad that several cards will be needed to help compensate for this.

Do you have an A/F gauge installed? Do you have the VEC software?

Unless you don't mine investing more money in this stay with the VEC and learn how to tune with it.Log the data and post the results.

A dyno is a starting point and you are past that. You will have better results with a laptop and tuning on a closed track under a variety of temp. condtions

There are many of us on this forum who know the VEC software and are willing to help you with that.

Thanks, Mr Hemi Head, I just want to get a safe to drive on the street Viper at this point. I very well may me asking for your help in learning to program my VEC2 for different weather conditions. I had been sending in reports of temperature and humidity to Larry Macedo everytime my car threw a code. He tried to adjust my VEC2 cards. I've given him a lot more data because my Viper has thrown a lot more codes - always P0171 until today's p0174. Larry has all my VEC2 cards right now and hopefully has reprogrammed them for another try at having a safe to drive car.

[plumcrazy]

i say give larry more time, he'll get it right for ya im sure.

hang in there. its a high HP car and THAT has to come with patience i think.

[Larry Macedo]

Larry,

Maybe you should re-read what I said. I had assumed you read it because you quoted it right before you started calling me names.

I defy you to point out in that post where I said anything about "not getting what he paid for". In fact, I'll defy you to point out where I ever even mentioned your name. I'll agree with you that Kenny used the "broken promises" and "not getting what he paid for" language in his post. But I certainly didn't use it in mine. I'd contend that Kenny making that statement is actually much worse than had I actually made it. After all, he is the customer, not me.

I'm glad you feel good about the numbers. Whether Kenny "feels good about them" is apparently another story. I personally don't care, although I will have to admit that I was a little underwhelmed by them considering the amount of time, parts, and money that went into the build. But that's neither here nor there. In addition, I guess I'm confused as to why you believe there is still "more in it". Does that mean that you knew it left your shop without being tuned to it's full potential? That you knew you were leaving power/drivability on the table? Or do you mean that it was perfect when it left, but something has changed between Florida and Kenny's house during transport?

When my car leaves a shop, I expect it to be running to its full potential (barring some upgrade which I opted not to make). I don't want the car to come home with XXX hp, but a promise that it "has more in it". If it has more in it, then I bloody well want it out of it. But maybe that's just me.

In conclusion, you can feel guilty all you want about the build that you did. I had nothing to do with it and I wasn't the one who started this topic. It was one of YOUR CUSTOMERS who came forward to let the board know all the problems he was having. I didn't attack you. I didn't need to. Your cutomer's testimonial speaks for itself. And now that I've actually seen how you talk to people and have read your "fine, take it to Joe" type attitude, I don't think you need to say much more. Your work here is done.

LOL! You really like to hear yourself talk, or write as the case may be. Don't pull a muscle patting yourself on the back, Joe. You are correct, I am finished with your diatribe.

[Larry Macedo]

Kenny, the cards have yet to arrive.