GEN I VS GEN II at the track (Roadcourse)

[Early93Viper]

Having tracked my GEN I for the past three years now I have always been interested as to how a GEN II would be different on a Roadcourse. What would be the advantages a GEN II would have over a GEN I. And what would be the advantages of a GEN I over a GEN II. (I think the GEN I's torque would help)

What do you think?

[dave6666]

Originally Posted by Early93Viper

What do you think?

Get one of each. Drive one of each. Report back with results.

[99 R/T 10]

Ask Chuck (TVC). He's a track rat and could probably give you a detailed explanation as to why the Gen II's are better(suspension) than the Gen I's. I've always wondered if it is possible to bolt a Gen II suspension to a Gen I car. Anybody?

[goldcup]

Man you should know by now a Sapphire Coupe would dominate all !!!!!! How the heck are ya stranger?

[Paul Hawker]

My experience driving a Gen 1 at the track was a while ago, and it was a hail Mary experience.

Brakes were sketchy, and every exit from a turn was different. Kind of a put the pedal down and hope the car does not go off the edge of the track. Each turn was different.
Great fun, and a true Viper experience.

The GTS was a very different ride. Brakes seemed more consistent. Did not feel like chassis was wiggling underneath you.
Suspension was much more consistent. You could work on your turns and it was the same every lap. Extra 50 hp was welcome and the pull out of the turns was a quite a bit more controllable.

GTS had better aerodynamics. You could really tell at fast tracks like Willow Springs where you could really pull on the RTs over 90 mph.

The GTS had a better thought out and executed suspension. Lighter weight hardware etc.

But I gotta tell you, when you hit it right on the RT, all was good with the world. Some times it scarred the **** out of you, but sure was fun.

[Early93Viper]

Originally Posted by goldcup

Man you should know by now a Sapphire Coupe would dominate all !!!!!! How the heck are ya stranger?

LOL I would love to have you out there with me man

[Early93Viper]

Originally Posted by Paul Hawker

My experience driving a Gen 1 at the track was a while ago, and it was a hail Mary experience.

Brakes were sketchy, and every exit from a turn was different. Kind of a put the pedal down and hope the car does not go off the edge of the track. Each turn was different.
Great fun, and a true Viper experience.

The GTS was a very different ride. Brakes seemed more consistent. Did not feel like chassis was wiggling underneath you.
Suspension was much more consistent. You could work on your turns and it was the same every lap. Extra 50 hp was welcome and the pull out of the turns was a quite a bit more controllable.

GTS had better aerodynamics. You could really tell at fast tracks like Willow Springs where you could really pull on the RTs over 90 mph.

The GTS had a better thought out and executed suspension. Lighter weight hardware etc.

But I gotta tell you, when you hit it right on the RT, all was good with the world. Some times it scarred the **** out of you, but sure was fun.

I never noticed how each turn would be different. Seems pretty consistant in my GEN I.

I have heard the suspension is better. Wonder if it's a bit easier to control at the edge?

[Tom, F&L GoR]

The brakes calipers on a Gen 1 and a non-ABS Gen 2 are eeeeexactly the same. Brembo 38/42mm 4-piston up front and the 36mm single piston in the rear. The brake booster was different and Gen 2 supposedly had better feel.

The front suspension geometry is the same. Because for Gen 2 the lower ball joint moved from the arm to the knuckle (or maybe the other way) the shock is one inch shorter for clearance. Everyone has always listed the front spring rates as the same. Other than the width of the lower a-arm bushings, I think Gen 2 will fit on Gen 1.

The rear suspension of Gen 2 has less anti-squat, I believe (angle of lower control arm shaft) and the shock straddles the half shaft. Therefore the shock is much shorter, but again, everyone has always listed the spring rates as the same. I don't know if Gen 2 arms would bolt up to a Gen 1.

The Gen 2 suspension arms are aluminum while Gen 1 are steel. I would guess that the "smoothness" comes from lighter unsprung parts. There should also be some refinement in rear suspension because of the better shock placement.

There is a lot to gain from setting the OEM Koni shock stiffness. It's a pain, but effective.

[Disturbed]

I don't recall the regular genI/II spring rates but on the ACR it's 850lbs front, 1100lbs rear.

[ViperGTS]

Depends on the driver(s).

Had a GEN-I "chasing" me on the GP-race track.
Me: 2002 RT/10 - stock (except exhaust and air filter)
He: 1995 RT/10 - lowered and upgraded brakes.

Out of the turns I pulled away (+50hp). Before and in the turns he was a little faster, I believe mainly because his car was lowered and my brakes were almost gone.

The stock RT/10 ride height is a little high for the race track.
And upgraded brakes make a hell of a difference.

[FrankBarba]

Not the Same Vehicle. Sure it can work. Why dedicate a Gen 1 car to Racing, when you can purchase a Gen 2 car for the Same $$$

[whitebluevipe]

boy that autoform roof really make a rt look good!!

[GTS Dean]

I've roadcoursed both - a lot. There is really no comparison in performance - the Gen 2 will smoke a Gen 1. In the early days of Viper Days, the later ones were almost always faster.

[RevHeat]

Dean, do you still make it out to Texas World Speedway? I was there this month for a Porsche DE.

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I gotta agree with what Paul said. "Hail Mary" is an appropriate response. Ii is not that the GenI isn't fast or doesn't handle well, it is just that it was difficult to drive. Difficult but lots and lots of fun. Put some grippy tires on it and I like everything about GenI. What other people call "twitchy" and "feel" I call exciting and challenging.

[GTS Dean]

Amen Chuck.

Rev,

I haven't been to TWS in nearly 2 years. I've been sprint shifter karting, but I miss the big car on the big track terribly. The roadrace shifter karts turn lap times at TWS faster than my all-time best in the Viper on Hoosiers.

[Early93Viper]

Originally Posted by ViperGTS

Depends on the driver(s).

Had a GEN-I "chasing" me on the GP-race track.
Me: 2002 RT/10 - stock (except exhaust and air filter)
He: 1995 RT/10 - lowered and upgraded brakes.

Out of the turns I pulled away (+50hp). Before and in the turns he was a little faster, I believe mainly because his car was lowered and my brakes were almost gone.

The stock RT/10 ride height is a little high for the race track.
And upgraded brakes make a hell of a difference.

Well obviously the driver is going to make a HUGE Diffrence. Here's me passing GEN IIs and GEN IIIs with some horribly old hard tires on:

Viper Days at MAM Iowa - Video

[TexasPettey]

Originally Posted by Early93Viper

Having tracked my GEN I for the past three years now I have always been interested as to how a GEN II would be different on a Roadcourse. What would be the advantages a GEN II would have over a GEN I. And what would be the advantages of a GEN I over a GEN II. (I think the GEN I's torque would help)

What do you think?

All the Gen2 guys will say how much better the car is than a Gen1. That's why the biggest advantage of a Gen1 is that everyone else assumes you are slow. They see the side pipes, and discount you. First pass of that ACR feels great.

Be smooth, and it's all good. The Gen1 can plant and hold as well as a Gen2, assuming spring rates are the same. That's a great place for cheap mods, although you will have a harsher street ride. I've got 500/750 springs, and I want more.

I've got Tom's rear brakes and some cones for cooling. The brakes are good with those basic mods. Sure, I'd like more, but I'm not there yet. I need to work more on my corner speed than on straight line speed and braking.

I do believe that the Gen1 needs more active throttle smoothness and control. Best quote I ever heard from an instructor regarding my Gen1 was: "These cars like to do 2 things: go fast and get out of control. Push it hard and only tell it to do one thing at a time. It will love it. Change your mind, and it will spin."

One thing that helped me on the track was to follow some of the 'momentum' cars with good drivers. They have to maximize corner speed. Their HP can't make up for it. If I wasn't smooth and focused on the line, they would put distance on me in the turn. Once you can hang with them in every corner, you've got the smoothness down. Then start laying on the power coming out of the turns and braking harder into the turns. If you start applying throttle smooth just before the apex, you've got plenty of room to recover. Just don't mash the pedal.

Also, a Gen1 with side pipes is louder for the spectators. It's great for drawing a post run crowd. Just tell them it's all stock.

The one major downside for the Gen1 is that performance parts are much more expensive. Very few sources exist for Gen1 performance parts.

[FrankBarba]

I see you all are talking about Track Days and not actual Racing...
Sorry still not the same.

[Dan Aseere]

I have both...94 rt and 97 gts. Have tracked both several times only real difference is the gts stays stronger longer on top end. The rt 10 has better low end torque for comming out of the turns. Both are great cars....could not pick a favorite.

[SoCal Rebell]

My personal experience at Willow Springs, RT or GTS doesn't matter as much as Gen I and Gen II. I roadraced my 2000 RT/10 and alot in my OTC partner's 2002 GTS and except for ABS they handled the same at 10/10ths. I was instructing MannyC who is now an accomplished road racer back when he had his Gen I, he asked me to drive it hard with him as a passanger to it's limit to see where that was.

Man I'll tell you that car was all over the place, the suspension geometry was soooo much worse then a gen II with the worse part being how "a$$ happy" the car was. That rear wanted to swing out on every turn, I hadda stay in the gas to plant, something I don't think a novice could do.

Basically in my experience it was extremely difficult to hot lap a track I knew like the back of my hand in a Gen I, where as it was a cake walk in a Gen II very predictable, my $.02

[JonB - PartsRack]

Originally Posted by GTS Dean

I've roadcoursed both - a lot. There is really no comparison in performance - the Gen 2 will smoke a Gen 1. In the early days of Viper Days, the later ones were almost always faster.

This question drew out Oldies like Dean, Frank, Socal, and Paul...

My answer: WHAT DEAN SAID. The proof was seen at the 1st 10 or so Viper Days events.

Gen 1 vs Gen 2, stock vs stock, is night and day. Add the same mods, get the same result.
Now if you strip em down into RACE CARS...they get more equal. But as street cars? NOT CLOSE.

Same Gen 2 vs 3

Same Gen 3 vs 4

[JonB - PartsRack]

Originally Posted by Disturbed

I don't recall the regular genI/II spring rates but on the ACR it's 850lbs front, 1100lbs rear.

The above info is incorrect for any ACR or any OE Viper. THE YEAR MATTERS, but the info is wrong across the board.

Partial credit: if you have a 2000.5 to 2002 ACR you got the rear rate correctly, and it was a DESIGN mistake in my opinion. Buckboard stiff, nearly unsafe. Unsafe on rough roads for sure. CHANGE IT or hit the ditch.....

[Marv S]

Team Viper did that on the '96 RT/10. Gen 1 body & motor with a Gen 2 suspension and rear mufler but no side sill resonators.

Run in Stock class (gen 1) and the 96 RT gives the most advantage over all prior years.

Originally Posted by 99 R/T 10

Ask Chuck (TVC). I've always wondered if it is possible to bolt a Gen II suspension to a Gen I car. Anybody?

[Tom, F&L GoR]

Texas, I think you sprung our secret. And 580 ft-lbs from a fairly stock engine helps.

No, it's not real racing. Yes, the driver and experience matters. But give an old 90,000 mile Gen1 on the original ball joints some credit for doing pretty well against Gen2 and Gen 3 cars at the NY/CT-NJ AX.

Driving the underdog always helps the driver's mindset. And newer cars being better should help make sure there's an even better car next year. It's all good.

[RTTTTed]

Chrysler set records by taking a car from 'concept' to production in only 3 years. The Gen 1 uses Dakota front susp. The Gen 2 uses Viper only susp. The alum. control arms are lighter and stiffer for better handling.

Ted

[Tom, F&L GoR]

Ummm... Since it interchanges, then the Gen 2 must use an aluminum version of the Dakota front suspension. So there.

Personally, it's been the back of the car that is harder to handle. If you had said something about aluminum or geometry or something to keep the rear end planted, then I'd agree.

Let me interject something out of the blue here - the bi-annual VCA-SRT AX forces owners to use their car to qualify, then use a never-seen Gen VI or V (or whatever we're getting up to) to compete. Let's start a motion that after the AX is won with your own car within your region, and you bring it to Detroit to compete against the SRT guys and their car. Then you'll see lots of interesting Gen 1 vs. Gen 2 vs. Gen 3 smack talk followed up by head-to-head results.

[GTS Dean]

I used to AX my Gen 1 until I found out how to get it on the road course - I rarely went back. I AX'd my GTS once or twice. It was MUCH faster through the slaloms than the Gen1.

Most AX-ers crack me up - white shoe polish and torque wrenches everywhere going "clickety-click."

[RTTTTed]

Originally Posted by Tom, F&L GoR

Ummm... Since it interchanges, then the Gen 2 must use an aluminum version of the Dakota front suspension. So there.

Personally, it's been the back of the car that is harder to handle. If you had said something about aluminum or geometry or something to keep the rear end planted, then I'd agree.

Let me interject something out of the blue here - the bi-annual VCA-SRT AX forces owners to use their car to qualify, then use a never-seen Gen VI or V (or whatever we're getting up to) to compete. Let's start a motion that after the AX is won with your own car within your region, and you bring it to Detroit to compete against the SRT guys and their car. Then you'll see lots of interesting Gen 1 vs. Gen 2 vs. Gen 3 smack talk followed up by head-to-head results.

Not sure if they interchange as it wasn't a technical article I was reading, it was an article on history & differences between the Generations and improvements. member GTSbud has a complete set of alum. A arms and spindles for a Gen2 in case someone wants to upgrade their Gen 1 with Gen 2 stuff. Send him an PM.

Ted

[GTS Dean]

The rear anti-squat geometry is significantly revised and the parts may not all fit properly. And be sure to get the rear shocks with clevises because there's no place to bolt the Gen1 shock to a Gen2 wishbone.