Air intake help...

[HHI VIPER]

Thinking of upgrading air flow/HP and was wondering if stock intake and box with K&N filters will provide best cold air/performance intake or what are the best options I have????? Wouldn't having the filters exposed under the hood draw in more hot air from the motor without the stock set up???? I need help from the pros!!!

[DAMN YANKEE]

Stock air box, smooth tubes with high flow filters and you are done. You do not need any more air, you will not use any more air. All the rest (except perhaps cooler air) is what you like to see when you open your hood. Leave your rain block alone, it makes ZERO difference.

And yes, I spent the bucks knowing all this....and my rig is supercharged and even that would not overpower the set up I spoke about in the first paragraph.

[HHI VIPER]

Originally Posted by DAMN YANKEE

Stock air box, smooth tubes with high flow filters and you are done. You do not need any more air, you will not use any more air. All the rest (except perhaps cooler air) is what you like to see when you open your hood. Leave your rain block alone, it makes ZERO difference.

And yes, I spent the bucks knowing all this....and my rig is supercharged and even that would not overpower the set up I spoke about in the first paragraph.

That sure is purdy under the hood!!!! Thanks for the info! I presently have smooth tubes connected to the stock box w/K&N filters. Am I right in assuming that would be as good as it gets naturally or would modifying the opening to 3" (in the backhalf of the box?) be better with stock box? I had a PM from another member regarding this modification. Or would it matter??? Thanks!

[FE 065]

Stock air box, smooth tubes with high flow filters and you are done. You do not need any more air, you will not use any more air. All the rest (except perhaps cooler air) is what you like to see when you open your hood. Leave your rain block alone, it makes ZERO difference...

Wrong on all accounts.

[DAMN YANKEE]

You've got all the air you need with your mods and a stock engine. Spend elsewhere.
FE 065 - Think so, ok, I'm game....lets here what your thoughts are.

[banton]

Originally Posted by FE 065

Stock air box, smooth tubes with high flow filters and you are done. You do not need any more air, you will not use any more air. All the rest (except perhaps cooler air) is what you like to see when you open your hood. Leave your rain block alone, it makes ZERO difference...

Wrong on all accounts.

Damn Yankee is right. I just had my car dyno'd after having a set of heads/cam and supporting mods done and the shop stated they messed with the intake including removing it and the filters (with hood off) to see if would gain any more power and they got zero gain.

[RTTTTed]

This is interesting as there's a following of UGR that runs NO airfilters as they say it's a 50rwhp loss with the best cone filters and plumbing at 900rwhp.

Smooth tubes make 10 hp and nothing else helps? Most posts here say that "GREEN" filters are significantly better than K&Ns.

Vipeair supposedly makes significant hp over stock because it is open to the rad front air. It also makes higher hp numbers when the Roe front fascia scoop is installed, 'reportedly'.

The Gen 2 Naca duct was too restrictive so that was changed when the hp was upgraded to over 500hp with the Gen 3s.

My thoughts are that since K&Ns and smooth tubes increase hp and the NACA duct was dumped for stock engines ... The much higher surface area of cone filters adds power (even when slightly dirty). Larger Throttle Bodies add hp so a larger, smoother air track before the TBs should be added when hp goes past 500hp. Since the Gen 2 scoop was dropped for teh Gen 3 I'd open the airbox before 500hp to suck cold high pressure air in front of the rad.

I have large dual cone filters, 3" smooth pipeing, larger TB,s, radfront air intake opening on my Macedo/M2 airfilter intake system. It was expensive, but Larry M. put a lot of time and effort into testing what makes power and designing my airbox - before Vipeair.

Call Larry Macedo or Sean at Roe Racing since there seems to be a difference in opinion - talk to an expert on the subject.





Ted

[banton]

Originally Posted by RTTTTed

This is interesting as there's a following of UGR that runs NO airfilters as they say it's a 50rwhp loss with the best cone filters and plumbing at 900rwhp.

Smooth tubes make 10 hp and nothing else helps? Most posts here say that "GREEN" filters are significantly better than K&Ns.

Vipeair supposedly makes significant hp over stock because it is open to the rad front air. It also makes higher hp numbers when the Roe front fascia scoop is installed, 'reportedly'.

The Gen 2 Naca duct was too restrictive so that was changed when the hp was upgraded to over 500hp with the Gen 3s.

My thoughts are that since K&Ns and smooth tubes increase hp and the NACA duct was dumped for stock engines ... The much higher surface area of cone filters adds power (even when slightly dirty). Larger Throttle Bodies add hp so a larger, smoother air track before the TBs should be added when hp goes past 500hp. Since the Gen 2 scoop was dropped for teh Gen 3 I'd open the airbox before 500hp to suck cold high pressure air in front of the rad.

I have large dual cone filters, 3" smooth pipeing, larger TB,s, radfront air intake opening on my Macedo/M2 airfilter intake system. It was expensive, but Larry M. put a lot of time and effort into testing what makes power and designing my airbox - before Vipeair.

Call Larry Macedo or Sean at Roe Racing since there seems to be a difference in opinion - talk to an expert on the subject.


Ted

I will clarify my statement then....on a Mustang dyno with my N/A GTS producing 592rwhp, my car showed no gains by removing the S&B filters, then the stock air box completely or by then removing the smooth tubes. Therefore on my car at its current power level, on a dyno demonstrated the a stock box with upgraded filters and smooth tubes did not present a performance restriction. How's that?

[RTTTTed]

That's fine. Is your car a Gen 2 with a Naca duct? Was the hood closed? Air speed etc. to simulate driving conditions?

The Vipeair supposedly overcomes the duct restrictions by drawing the high pressure air (not still or fan driven air on a stopped dyno) into the engine.

A Dyno doesn't drive and an open hood wouldn't notice the duct restriction. Ram air systems don't usually gain hp until after 60mph.

There was a lot of contravesy on the Vipeair hp claims, and I have no opinion on that, but I do see advantages with more cold air avaiable to higher than stock hp. I also posted a couple of experts that designed airboxes and intake systems that have in-house dynos.

Ted

[DAMN YANKEE]

Ok, well....here we go. This is all meant to be productively helpful.

"This is interesting as there's a following of UGR that runs NO airfilters as they say it's a 50rwhp loss with the best cone filters and plumbing at 900rwhp."

Perhaps at 900hp...perhaps. But, this thread was started by a guy that had a very real question "how far should I push my pre throttle body air system. The answer is still the same, with smooth tubes and high flow filters...the man is done.

Smooth tubes make 10 hp and nothing else helps? Most posts here say that "GREEN" filters are significantly better than K&Ns.

Smooth tubes and high flows, not "nothing else". He is done. Green, yellow, pink or just his K&Ns it all the same...ZERO difference, high flow and done. He should not throw out his K&Ns for Green as, until somebody shows up here with factual data that reveals more than .002HP its all the same.

Vipeair supposedly makes significant hp over stock because it is open to the rad front air. It also makes higher hp numbers when the Roe front fascia scoop is installed, 'reportedly'.

I said "except perhaps colder air" in my first paragraph. I was refering to two important but UNPROVEN on a stock engine mods...the VIPAIR and the JMB cold air system I run.
One of the best loggers out there, Steve, believes his Vipair helps...on a cold morning...in the first 8 minutes of his supercharged rig....before heat soad sets in. I belive the JMB unit, that feeds air from infron of the radiator may help too. As for the Roe fascia, cooler engine...yes. Higher HP on a stock engine? Show me the numbers..that is a one way mod (cutting up your Viper) he should not do it until the numbers show him its worth it.

The Gen 2 Naca duct was too restrictive so that was changed when the hp was upgraded to over 500hp with the Gen 3s.

GenII is what the man has and his Naca works perfectly...add the smooth tubes and high flows and he eliminates the EPA required parts that slowed the air down. He does not have 500 GENIII, he does not need anything more.

My thoughts are that since K&Ns and smooth tubes increase hp and the NACA duct was dumped for stock engines ... The much higher surface area of cone filters adds power (even when slightly dirty). Larger Throttle Bodies add hp so a larger, smoother air track before the TBs should be added when hp goes past 500hp. Since the Gen 2 scoop was dropped for teh Gen 3 I'd open the airbox before 500hp to suck cold high pressure air in front of the rad.

Now this one is important. There is no "higher surface area" that is goping to help once the air hits the tubes. I've spent a boat load of $ modifying my rig and making it run perfectly. I'm a mod advocate. I try very hard to refrain answering a guys question like you just did. You and I need to help these guys forward by making sure they PLAN. He does not have larger throttle bodies, he does not have 500 hp, or a supercharger. He does not have an airflow issue with his current set-up. He just wants to know can his engine efficiently make Lambda without any air drag effect...his answer is yes...smooth tubes and high flows.

I have large dual cone filters, 3" smooth pipeing, larger TB,s, radfront air intake opening on my Macedo/M2 airfilter intake system. It was expensive, but Larry M. put a lot of time and effort into testing what makes power and designing my airbox - before Vipeair.

Larry M...time and testing....perfect...numbers please?
I spoke to Sean and Joe D and JMB and a host of other guys all of them knowing I was buying and would be logging and testing and logging and testing and they all said the same thing. There would be no meaningful Horsepower gain on a stock engine that already had smooth tubes and high flows and then had a fancy air box swapped out.
Let me be clear here....Z-E-R-O meaningful HP improvement....as in NONE, NULL, 0,etc.
There are GREAT reasons to move forward with heavy mod engines...HEAVY mod engines.
A 5lbs pulley...not needed. An 8 lbs pulley...not needed. HEAVY mod startes at 10 lbs.

Call Larry Macedo or Sean at Roe Racing since there seems to be a difference in opinion - talk to an expert on the subject.

Please do....but dont just call them to ask them about an airbox...call them and plan out a great engine buildout. Call them and ask them things like "would you supercharge my engine or turbo charge it?" or "Would you use positive induction or heads and cams?" or "what can I expect if I was to get a better tune out of my stock engine with an engine management system?" or "How do you feel about using NO2?" or "how can I effectively spend $2k"....just consider something more than....airbox. You have your correct answer on that one...

Oh yea....guess what I have sitting on my shelf..my old smooth tube and high flow filter set...plan...don't let it happen to you.

Lastly, go to the illustrated section...I did a long piece on this JMB airbox...and in that piece I start out saying the truth of it:

":Why do it? Why take a perfectly good air box and swap it out? The facts are that with quality high flow filters and smooth tubes, the stock air box delivers all the air a set of stock throttle bodies require. Even when one is running a supercharged Roe system (lower pounds) high flow filter and smooth tubes make the stock air box a great match. The stock air box also has some other nice features, it fits like…well,stock, handles rain water and has a nice place to attach all the other stock breather lines that we require. Bust out the rain baffle? Well, the technique of removing the rain baffle adds little if any usable air flow and takes away…rain protection. So…why do it? I was hoping you would ask that….".

Sign in and go here...

JMB PERFORMANCE AIR BOX - Guide & Photos

[HHI VIPER]

Originally Posted by DAMN YANKEE

Ok, well....here we go. This is all meant to be productively helpful.

"This is interesting as there's a following of UGR that runs NO airfilters as they say it's a 50rwhp loss with the best cone filters and plumbing at 900rwhp."

Perhaps at 900hp...perhaps. But, this thread was started by a guy that had a very real question "how far should I push my pre throttle body air system. The answer is still the same, with smooth tubes and high flow filters...the man is done.

Smooth tubes make 10 hp and nothing else helps? Most posts here say that "GREEN" filters are significantly better than K&Ns.

Smooth tubes and high flows, not "nothing else". He is done. Green, yellow, pink or just his K&Ns it all the same...ZERO difference, high flow and done. He should not throw out his K&Ns for Green as, until somebody shows up here with factual data that reveals more than .002HP its all the same.

Vipeair supposedly makes significant hp over stock because it is open to the rad front air. It also makes higher hp numbers when the Roe front fascia scoop is installed, 'reportedly'.

I said "except perhaps colder air" in my first paragraph. I was refering to two important but UNPROVEN on a stock engine mods...the VIPAIR and the JMB cold air system I run.
One of the best loggers out there, Steve, believes his Vipair helps...on a cold morning...in the first 8 minutes of his supercharged rig....before heat soad sets in. I belive the JMB unit, that feeds air from infron of the radiator may help too. As for the Roe fascia, cooler engine...yes. Higher HP on a stock engine? Show me the numbers..that is a one way mod (cutting up your Viper) he should not do it until the numbers show him its worth it.

The Gen 2 Naca duct was too restrictive so that was changed when the hp was upgraded to over 500hp with the Gen 3s.

GenII is what the man has and his Naca works perfectly...add the smooth tubes and high flows and he eliminates the EPA required parts that slowed the air down. He does not have 500 GENIII, he does not need anything more.

My thoughts are that since K&Ns and smooth tubes increase hp and the NACA duct was dumped for stock engines ... The much higher surface area of cone filters adds power (even when slightly dirty). Larger Throttle Bodies add hp so a larger, smoother air track before the TBs should be added when hp goes past 500hp. Since the Gen 2 scoop was dropped for teh Gen 3 I'd open the airbox before 500hp to suck cold high pressure air in front of the rad.

Now this one is important. There is no "higher surface area" that is goping to help once the air hits the tubes. I've spent a boat load of $ modifying my rig and making it run perfectly. I'm a mod advocate. I try very hard to refrain answering a guys question like you just did. You and I need to help these guys forward by making sure they PLAN. He does not have larger throttle bodies, he does not have 500 hp, or a supercharger. He does not have an airflow issue with his current set-up. He just wants to know can his engine efficiently make Lambda without any air drag effect...his answer is yes...smooth tubes and high flows.

I have large dual cone filters, 3" smooth pipeing, larger TB,s, radfront air intake opening on my Macedo/M2 airfilter intake system. It was expensive, but Larry M. put a lot of time and effort into testing what makes power and designing my airbox - before Vipeair.

Larry M...time and testing....perfect...numbers please?
I spoke to Sean and Joe D and JMB and a host of other guys all of them knowing I was buying and would be logging and testing and logging and testing and they all said the same thing. There would be no meaningful Horsepower gain on a stock engine that already had smooth tubes and high flows and then had a fancy air box swapped out.
Let me be clear here....Z-E-R-O meaningful HP improvement....as in NONE, NULL, 0,etc.
There are GREAT reasons to move forward with heavy mod engines...HEAVY mod engines.
A 5lbs pulley...not needed. An 8 lbs pulley...not needed. HEAVY mod startes at 10 lbs.

Call Larry Macedo or Sean at Roe Racing since there seems to be a difference in opinion - talk to an expert on the subject.

Please do....but dont just call them to ask them about an airbox...call them and plan out a great engine buildout. Call them and ask them things like "would you supercharge my engine or turbo charge it?" or "Would you use positive induction or heads and cams?" or "what can I expect if I was to get a better tune out of my stock engine with an engine management system?" or "How do you feel about using NO2?" or "how can I effectively spend $2k"....just consider something more than....airbox. You have your correct answer on that one...

Oh yea....guess what I have sitting on my shelf..my old smooth tube and high flow filter set...plan...don't let it happen to you.

Lastly, go to the illustrated section...I did a long piece on this JMB airbox...and in that piece I start out saying the truth of it:

":Why do it? Why take a perfectly good air box and swap it out? The facts are that with quality high flow filters and smooth tubes, the stock air box delivers all the air a set of stock throttle bodies require. Even when one is running a supercharged Roe system (lower pounds) high flow filter and smooth tubes make the stock air box a great match. The stock air box also has some other nice features, it fits like…well,stock, handles rain water and has a nice place to attach all the other stock breather lines that we require. Bust out the rain baffle? Well, the technique of removing the rain baffle adds little if any usable air flow and takes away…rain protection. So…why do it? I was hoping you would ask that….".

Sign in and go here...

JMB PERFORMANCE AIR BOX - Guide & Photos

WOW...just checking my thread and alot happened in 24 hours! Didn't mean to start a debate guys, I am new to the car and am trying to learn from experienced folks what my options are and what seems to work. DamnYankee you seem to have alot of info and I appreciate it and all others as well. Yes DamnYankee I agree, "have a plan"...My plan for the moment is to use the stock motor, keep it naturally asperated (for now... LOL) and get the most out of it with preliminary "bolt on" items and do it in stages. Obviously air intake and air exiting would be initial, correct? Larger throttle bodies or anything else helpful, or...? I guess larger throttle bodies means "NEED MORE AIR"??? I know there was a "first upgrades" thread at one time. I will try a search for it. For now I want ot get the biggest bang for the buck and move from there.

[dave6666]

One thing that dyno'ing a rain dam delete or a Vipair does not accomplish...

They are dynamic mods. They work only at speed. Don't know what that speed is, but it ain't the static speed of ZERO sitting on a dyno.

Unless someone has taken their Viper to be dyno'd in a wind tunnel, no one is qualified to say whether they work or not.

[ViperTony]

Originally Posted by dave6666

One thing that dyno'ing a rain dam delete or a Vipair does not accomplish...

They are dynamic mods. They work only at speed. Don't know what that speed is, but it ain't the static speed of ZERO sitting on a dyno.

Unless someone has taken their Viper to be dyno'd in a wind tunnel, no one is qualified to say whether they work or not.

It's easy to test. Using a Vec3, one could log several WOT pulls and analyze the data. I did this last summer with the Vipair duct and without. I saw no difference in HP/TQ but my engine was heat soaked by the time I got to logging. My air temperature was already way up there so I decided it was 'inconclusive'. All one has to do is log with the Vec3 out in the real world and I think will be a good measure for the Vipair. I only installed the Vipair 'cause I picked it up off ebay 2 years ago for $49.

[dave6666]

Originally Posted by ViperTony

It's easy to test. Using a Vec3, one could log several WOT pulls and analyze the data. I did this last summer with the Vipair duct and without. I saw no difference in HP/TQ but my engine was heat soaked by the time I got to logging. My air temperature was already way up there so I decided it was 'inconclusive'. All one has to do is log with the Vec3 out in the real world and I think will be a good measure for the Vipair. I only installed the Vipair 'cause I picked it up off ebay 2 years ago for $49.

OK. I'll agree with your concept there. But unlike the 50hp claimed () with the Vipair, it may be such a small change that the Vec3 would not even pick it up. I mean, lets say the Vipair gave you 5 hp and the air dam delete gave you 2 hp. Would your test pick that up?

And yes, I'll spend $49.99 and get my Dremel out for 7 hp! Or whatever it is or isn't.

[ViperTony]

Originally Posted by dave6666

OK. I'll agree with your concept there. But unlike the 50hp claimed () with the Vipair, it may be such a small change that the Vec3 would not even pick it up. I mean, lets say the Vipair gave you 5 hp and the air dam delete gave you 2 hp. Would your test pick that up?

And yes, I'll spend $49.99 and get my Dremel out for 7 hp! Or whatever it is or isn't.

Well, I'm thinking that if the Vipair is supposed to allow more cool air to the intake than the Vec3 can log the Air Intake Temperature sensor readings and verify if that claim is true or not. I'd imagine with your roe fascia duct, you're pushing a lot more cool air through there than I am and will probably see a difference.

At the end of the day...its fun. Removing that rain baffle made me feel complete. I love it.