Friend's Viper Failed Emissions BAD ... ?

GotAViper · May 10, 2007

My friend just got a 94 viper with 15k miles on it. He just called me up from getting it inspected.

The guy that workst here said it is running really FAT - exact numbers are in the post below

The guy said he should probably take it to the dealer?

Any ideas why this would be happening?

The viper is completely stock has the cats on there, it almost stalls out when you press in the clutch at low speeds. (ex: going 2 mph and push the clutch in the rpms drop to almost zero and it feels like its going to stall out) if that has anything to do with the problem.

Thanks

GotA350ZTT · May 10, 2007

Actually it was my Viper. Readings are as follows:

HC PPM:
15MPH Limit: 34 Reading: 101
25MPH Limit: 38 Reading: 84

CO%:
15MPH Limit: 0.14 Reading: 0.98
25MPH Limit: 0.20 Reading: 0.73

Visually, the cat looks good from the outside. Any ideas what it could be? Do you think the cat is bad? Something else?

DAMN YANKEE · May 10, 2007

This is the kind of thing where a Viper Tech will plug into the OBD and know pretty fast.

bth1 · May 10, 2007

You didn't happen to see who/what car went ahead of you? I have heard that if they sniff, and the machine isn't reset properly after a car that failed went through it would fail the next car also. Just an idea.

GotA350ZTT · May 10, 2007

bth1 said:
You didn't happen to see who/what car went ahead of you? I have heard that if they sniff, and the machine isn't reset properly after a car that failed went through it would fail the next car also. Just an idea.

Yeah, it was a pretty new Ford F150, so I doubt there were any issues with it.

I'm dropping the car off at Dodge tonight, just a major pain in the ass. Now I have to make two trips to the DMV instead of one lol.

I talked to a service writer there, and if the cats went bad, they will replace them for free. Hopefully this is the problem! Maybe an excuse to get exhaust/high flow cats?

CROM · May 10, 2007

Take it to Dulles Dodge and let them take a look. They are close and the vipertech there seems to be somewhat competent.

GotA350ZTT · May 10, 2007

Where is Dulles Dodge? The only one I know of in the area is in Chantilly off rt. 50. Is that what you're talking about?

CROM · May 10, 2007

That's the one. I get my emissions/state inspections done there and have spoken to the tech a few times. He's a decent guy and a few others in the area have had good results with him. Just be aware that when he sees a viper he sees dollar signs, but he should be able to diagnose your problem.

Freddog11 · May 10, 2007

When I got my 96 and brought it back to Arizona, I had to get it emission tested. All they did was plug in to the OBD, never hooked anything to the tailpipe. It passed, but it had no readings, just said OBD not detected.

CROM · May 10, 2007

They treated your car as an OBD2 vehicle. His is OBD1. They do a sniffer test for 95 and older vehicles in emissions regulated counties in Virginia now. OBD2 vehicles only get the plug.

GotA350ZTT · May 10, 2007

CROM said:
They treated your car as an OBD2 vehicle. His is OBD1. They do a sniffer test for 95 and older vehicles in emissions regulated counties in Virginia now. OBD2 vehicles only get the plug.

Exactly!

Yeah the guys name is Dwayne I believe. Taking my car in there tonight. Will find out what the deal is tomorrow, hopefully nothing major. If it's the cat, I may go ahead and just buy Belanger exhaust and hi-flow cats, and just have them put that on instead and the install difference.

plumcrazy · May 10, 2007

call chuck tator while you're at it. he might be able to help over the phone. he certainly knows these cars pretty good.

914-763-3136

GotA350ZTT · May 10, 2007

Just left a message with Chuck

GTS Dean · May 10, 2007

Dan Cragin at The Viper Shop in SoCal has been dealing with that sort of business since the '92 Vipers came out. He's probably the best resource there is.

viperdude118 · May 10, 2007

I worked at an Emissions place for 2 years while going to school.

viperdude118 · May 10, 2007

I worked at an Emissions place for 2 years while going to school.

For high HC and CO, I'd change plugs, wires and (look at air filters, change if necessary)They are cheap. You might change upstream O2 sensors, don't think but not sure if Gen I's even have anything in terms of O2's downstream of the cats, I don't think they do since the are OBDI.

These are cheap things you can do without taking it to a dealer and spending lots of $$$.

I doub't very much that your cats are bad with only 15k on them.

Keep us posted on what you find out, these emission things are made out to be way harder by people than they really are....oh one last quick thought, run some lucas fuel injector cleaner through one full tank of gas. Once that is empty then refill before testing again.

GotA350ZTT · May 10, 2007

Keep, based on the readings, does it seem like the cats are still there? It's very possible that the cats may have been gutted...but I'm not sure what the readings would show if they were?

viperdude118 · May 10, 2007

On another related topic, I saw many cars perform much much better than limits set by the EPA based on the engine during a probe sample in tail pipe test with NO CATS, but rather an optimally tuned fuel ratio. 14.7:1. Cats are merely a catch all for what HC, CO, and NOx doesn't get burn't in the engine.

I suppose you could tune with a VEC2 a ratio specifically for passing the emissons testing. Point being, with this low of mileage on the car in question, 15k....I'd still try everything else first before I'd even mess with the cats.

GotA350ZTT · May 10, 2007

viperdude118 said:
On another related topic, I saw many cars perform much much better than limits set by the EPA based on the engine during a probe sample in tail pipe test with NO CATS, but rather an optimally tuned fuel ratio. 14.7:1. Cats are merely a catch all for what HC, CO, and NOx doesn't get burn't in the engine.

I suppose you could tune with a VEC2 a ratio specifically for passing the emissons testing. Point being, with this low of mileage on the car in question, 15k....I'd still try everything else first before I'd even mess with the cats.

Thanks for all of the info, its been very helpful. Dodge is looking at the cats for free and replacing them for free if it's the issue. I just came back from dropping the car off, so we'll find out more tomorrow. All of the stuff like the plugs, etc I plan on doing anyway, we shall see!

Mopar Steve · May 10, 2007

The cats are not the problem with those numbers. Drive the car for about an hour before going back. drive "enthusiastically" and go there while hot.

NHL2133 · May 10, 2007

Was the car idling while you waiting in line for a while? My car would always fail when I had to wait in line, and I drive a 1985 Honda. Last time the guy working the emissions place told me to shut the car off for a couple minutes right before the test. He said what happens is at idle the gases build up in the tail pipe because there's not enough pressure to blow it out. This could cause high readings when they finally rev up the motor.
I hope you find out what the problem is, and get in corrected soon!

GotA350ZTT · May 11, 2007

NHL2133 said:
Was the car idling while you waiting in line for a while? My car would always fail when I had to wait in line, and I drive a 1985 Honda. Last time the guy working the emissions place told me to shut the car off for a couple minutes right before the test. He said what happens is at idle the gases build up in the tail pipe because there's not enough pressure to blow it out. This could cause high readings when they finally rev up the motor.
I hope you find out what the problem is, and get in corrected soon!

Sort of. I was in line with 3 cars ahead of me, but I shut the car down each time I moved up a spot. They pulled the car in, did about 15 minutes of regular inspection, pulled the car out, backed it in, and then did the emissions test. I don't think it was enough to cause anything to not pass...but you never know.

Tomorrow I should find out more info as a local Viper tech is going to look at it.

DaDood · May 11, 2007

Just going by those numbers, looks like the car is running too rich or you are not getting complete combustion in all of the cylinders. HC is just leftover, unburned gas going into the exhaust and CO is from incomplete combustion.
Just my $.02 though.
Good luck with the ride!

GotA350ZTT · May 11, 2007

DaDood said:
Just going by those numbers, looks like the car is running too rich or you are not getting complete combustion in all of the cylinders. HC is just leftover, unburned gas going into the exhaust and CO is from incomplete combustion.
Just my $.02 though.
Good luck with the ride!

So what would be the solution to something like that?

CROM · May 11, 2007

You could try changing the spark plugs/wires and resetting your ECU (pull positive cable up front). And drive around for a little while, cycling the engine on and off a few times.

Correct me someone if I am wrong, but bad 02 sensors could cause your car to run rich, but of course you would probably get an engine code.

RoadiJeff · May 11, 2007

I saw some product at Auto Zone that you add to your gas. It guarantees that you'll pass the emissions test or your money back. I never tried it.

It kind of reminded me of the stuff in a bottle I saw at a used clothing store that guarantees you'll pass a drug test if taken right before the test. I never tried that either, or had any reason to, for that matter.

GotA350ZTT · May 11, 2007

Spoke with Chuck Tator, and he was a huge help and very resourceful! I now see why you guys call him the Viper Wizard.

Dodge just called me and the car passed! Nothing was changed on the car, apparently the Goodyear shop just ran the car too cold. I'm going to try and get Goodyear to pay for the 1 hour diag fee and new emissions test fee from Dodge since they didn't do the test right.

On top of this, Chuck gave me some great advice to sync the throttle bodies because the car was jerking any time I play with the throttle at all. Apparently Dodge did the sync as well, and should be driving much better. Really looking forward to picking it up in about an hour!

Will post one more update when I get back home. Thanks again to Chuck and everybody who chimed in with suggestions.

viperdude118 · May 11, 2007

Mopar Steve said:
The cats are not the problem with those numbers. Drive the car for about an hour before going back. drive "enthusiastically" and go there while hot.

Probably the best advice in this thread. I apologize for overlooking this! We also saw many cars fail the test, since they only drive like a mile to get to the testing site. The car should be at full operating temp prior to testing.

Glad you got it to pass with minimal hassle!

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