House Votes to Allow Guns in Cockpit!

[YellowSnake]

House Votes to Allow Guns in Cockpit



WASHINGTON (CNN) --To the delight of pilots and chagrin of the White House, the House of Representatives Wednesday overwhelmingly endorsed the idea of letting commercial airline pilots carry guns in the cockpit. By a vote of 310-113, the House passed a bill allowing airline pilots to arm themselves after undergoing training. The bill had originally called for a pilot program covering 1,400 pilots over the next two years, but, when it came to the floor, House members decided to expand it to any pilot interested in carrying a gun.

Full Story: http://www.cnn.com/2002/TRAVEL/NEWS/...uns/index.html

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[VIPERESS]

I have mixed feelings on this one. Although I believe it is a good thing when we make it more difficult for these animals, and the more obstacles we place before them, may work as a deterent.
I am concerned about guns winding up in the hands of someone that maybe just shouldn't ever have one. Or a pilot panicking, becoming "trigger happy". I think Air Marshalls (I want that job are a good defense, I'm just not sure about the pilots with guns?? What's next? Have the flight attendants "packing" too??

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I agree with Viperess. Mixed feelings. Pilots are trained to fly and spend all day flying. How good, how often and how expensive will gun training be? But maybe I'm overeacting, I'm not crazy about the idea of a 25 year old cop carrying a gun either.

<preemptive strike> A 20 year old G.I. doesn't patrol the public. </preemptive strike>

[Bonkers]

One benefit to the terrorist though is that now they know exactly where to go to get a weapon. Who needs to smuggle one on board?

Like I said from the begin - I don't worry about pilots with guns, I worry about someone else with the pilots gun....

[Snake Bitten]

Cockpit doors have been reinforced, so it will take Habib more than just a swift kick to get into the cockpit...and between the pilot, co-pilot, and the auto-pilot...flying the plane while Habib is trying to make his way into the cockpit is no problem...with today's auto-pilots, most of the flying is done by the computer anyway...AND...about 75% of the commercial pilots that fly the jumbo jets are ex-military officers, all of which were trained in the use of weapons...officers especially in the use of hand guns...AND...the PILOTS themselves are willing to do this, to protect their aircraft...GIVE EM GUNS!

None of this is going to keep Habib from bringing down a commercial jet, it will just keep him from flying it into a skyscraper...Our government needs to figure out how to keep Habib, and his coat full of dynamite, off the freakin plane...and out of our country...period!

[The Joker]

Very simple, make sure the door cannot be breached, regardless if there are hostages. Cut the air pressure, knock the people out in back.

[Big Medicine]

Great; I'm all for it.

If your plane is being hijacked, you have worse problems than worrying about whether palm recognition technology is a hoax or lopsided Handgun Control Inc. statistics about guns winding up in the wrong hands holds water.

Hijackings are over anyway; the pun-jabs know that everyone on the plane would fight to their death before they allowed the plane to be overtaken. Or at least I would. And Joker too.

[USAF BAD ASP]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Joker:
I always take the seat facing the rest of the passengers.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you must be a cheapo and fly southwest all the time then

I see both sides to the argument.. but honestly.. when will a pilot be able to use the gun? the doors are already somewhat secured. So, lets review some scenarios:

1.
if muhammadhabibthabatghet gets his own gun on board and shoots the door lock and busts it open, he'll get in and the pilot probably won't have time to pull a gun before they get bullets in the back of their heads
Result:
Guns in cockpit = mostly worthless

2.
if aljabiqramedad smuggles a fake plastic gun on board and takes a prisoner hostage, the pilot will feel compelled to come out of the cockpit since he has a gun. If he had no gun he would have no reason to come out. So, he comes out walking halfway down the aisle, then they wave their guns around the air yelling at each other in a standoff. aljabiq has 3 cohorts who sat up front, who are now behind the pilot. They quickly jump pilot, grab gun.. kill a few people before they are overpowered by passengers.
Result:
Gun in cockpit = killed several passengers

3. Musouihimbab gets on board with bomb. Demands pilots to turn over gun and cockpit or else.. they say hell no fearing he'll fly into another building. So, kaboom.. 200 dead
Result:
Gun in cockpit = useless

4. jalhimerad the sneaky raghead gets a knife on board. holds flight attendant hostage. pilot comes out and threatens to kill him. He figures even if he lets her go and surrenders he will face horrible punishment in the US, so he kills her, pilot kills him, and hopes he doesn't have 5 friends on board who jump him for the gun.
Result:
Gun in cockpit = mostly useless. If the pilot had no gun and stayed in the cockpit, he might have killed flight attendant but passengers would have overtaken him before he killed more.

5. husein gets gun on board and is trying to break down the door. Pilots have advanced notice and get gun ready. As soon as door flings open pilot start unloading. Kills husein.. along with 2 passengers sitting behind him in the line of fire.
Result:
Gun in cockpit = kills hijacker, but with innocent life at high risk for crossfire.

Much better option would have been to just use the 30lb crash axe that's in the cockpit of every plane already and wack his hand as soon as that door flung open. He might have got a shot off and killed pilot or copilot in the process, but if you're commanding a vehicle that some people want to takeover, you assume some risk. (crashing/hijacking/engine failure/etc. The passengers shouldn't really have to assume the risk. if they do, they might just stop flying...

So, I really haven't made my mind up 100% either way yet. I know both sides have pros/cons, but after thinking it thru and imagining the scenarios, I did not find enough benifits to justify putting another weapon up there yet because:

A: it's becomes a reason for the pilot to leave his office (cockpit) if he thinks he can do something about it with a gun.

B: it becomes yet another resource would-be hijackers can steal.

C: We already have air marshalls on alot of the more lucrative flights. (bigger jets with longer range routes)


So, there are your options as I see them

[The Joker]

[quote]Originally posted by USAF BAD ASP:
[b] you must be a cheapo and fly southwest all the time then

Actually I am just pooro with less moneyo. I have to claim my wife as a friend for that friends fly free program. Which is kind of nice but she says I take it to far because I take my wedding ring off

[Tom and Vipers]

First of all, anyone questioning the "ability" of a pilot to carry a gun simply doesn't know any pilots.

The set of all pilots is perhaps the most superior set of human beings you can assemble by ordinary occupation. (Obviously, F1 driver would be ever more superior ... and of course Fighter Pilots. Doctors, forget it. Lawyers, forget it.)

On the other hand, cops are among the most inferior set of human beings you can assemble...

Do the math.

I just have to laugh at gun paranoia.

Let's do a little poll:

Everyone who is afraid of guns: Where did your fear come from? Admit it, you are afraid of scarey GUN NEWS ON TV! If TV said nothing about guns, there would be no widespread fear of guns.


Oh, one other thought:

If 9/11 had been blacked out like the old days in Russia, let's face it, would anyone elsewhere have noticed any difference in their life? Of course not! Yet everyone is terrified!

It is sad that fear mongering is profitable monetarily and politically.

The bottom line, you're supposed to let the government provide for your safety. And you better get used to it because that is what you are supposed to do.

[Makara]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom and Vipers:



Let's do a little poll:

Everyone who is afraid of guns: Where did your fear come from? Admit it, you are afraid of scarey GUN NEWS ON TV! If TV said nothing about guns, there would be no widespread fear of guns.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure. It was either the time I had a gun pulled on me or one of the times that I had a friend or acquaintance that was shot. Try having a gun pulled on you and tell me how much you like them afterwards. At any rate, I think that I am for having guns in the cockpits. Along with having armed pilots, I think that we should take extra precautions such as keeping a secured, sealed cabin, separate bathrooms for the pilots that are accessible only from the cockpit, and armed air martials aboard the planes. I am going to hate to see the crew-passanger interaction lost in this mess but we just can't risk letting some nut into the cabin. Will having guns in the cockpit also mean that stewards and stewardesses won't be allowed to go into the cabin? What if a terrorist became a steward then used that position to access the cabin and take the gun? It sucks that we even have to worry about situations like that.

[The Joker]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maxwedge:
..We the people have to fight for ourselves. We should be expected to pick up the ball and defend ourselves.
Note the first guy to react to the shooter at LAX was just some guy waiting in line. He didnt act like a sheep and cower...he did what he should. Guns in the cockpit wont take place of 4 brave people defending themselves IMHO...


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is why when I fly I sit as close to the cockpit as I can. No ******* is going to take over my flight on my watch. I always take the seat facing the rest of the passengers.

[GTS Bruce]

Ah, for all you uninformed out there.Some pilots have been packing guns on their flights since at least the 1950's. Bruce

[Tom and Vipers]

RE: Pilots

I don't know where you get your pilots, but I get mine from the EAA and they are all quite amazing people. Everything from ex-fighter jocks to a 70 year old woman (who recently passed away) who was a B-17 ferry pilot. I also know cops too and I can ASSURE you, there is NO COMPARISON between these 2 groups.

RE: Gun Hysteria

Where I come from (and the vast majority of other areas), you will never see a gun used in a crime. If you live where you hear gunshots at night, you have a right to be afraid, but you are in the minority and you should not try to scare the rest of us. In the sleepy little place where I live, people are afraid of guns for no reason other than scarey news stories.

The Dali Lamma commented on this phenomena in our society. He said that events like Columbine are RARE and ISOLATED and only meant to affect the lives of a FEW people. The damage that is done to our culture by broadcasting this nightmare into every man, woman, and child's mind is inestimable.

So instead of having perhaps 1000 lives stigmatized, now we have 200,000,000 that are, although to a much lesser extent, still traumatized nonetheless.

RE: Armed Pilots

I do not know the tactics of commandeering an airplane, but the limited movement allowed by the seats and aisles might make the presence of a Sky Marshall completely ineffective. One thing for certain, hijackers will try to make their way to the cockpit and THAT is where the defense is best made. Even with a "secure" door, they may still get it open. What then?

But all of this is academic. In any flight there will be at least a few tough guys that would just love to dismember a hijacker. So actually, the gun is a moot point. Unfortunately, bombs aren't.

So there you have it. Everyone is worried about guns and doors and the real present danger is bombs. Of course no one is interested in talking about that. That is, until one goes off. THEN there will be talk.

[USAF BAD ASP]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GTS Bruce:
Ah, for all you uninformed out there.Some pilots have been packing guns on their flights since at least the 1950's. Bruce

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


bruce, I have three immediate family members who work for the airlines, and that's simply not true for commercial aviation.

Second, I see your point tom. I never said pilot are not capable. They are typically a very bright crowd After all I am one. I have an expert marksmanship cert with the USAF on the 9mm also. But when I put myself in a commercial pilots seat, and think of these scenarios in my head, I can never see the gun doing much good.

Yes, there are some conceiveable ways it could help. But Jim McGuire said it right: All they would have to do is get one of them in as a pilot and it's over. Hell, we give them the visa to come here and study with or full citizenship, we give them "minority" scholarships to pay for school, we give them a great paying job as a pilot because of our great economy, and now we give them the gun to kill mr. co pilot with! and since the dern cockpit doors are secured, no one in the cabin can do sh!t about it!

But, I won't be pissed about it either way. But I am leaning towards being against the guns up there. Just put bullet proof doors for the cockpit. Then, worst case scenario: they sneak bomb on and then the gun won't help anyway, or they get their own gun on, and kill a few people before being taken down by passengers. Either way, pilot stays up front locked in. Sounds reasonable to me.