REALITY:)

[VIPERESS]

For the past few weeks I have been sitting back, mostly, just watching, rather than posting to many of the threads. Just watching what has been happening with this discussion board, a place that I enjoyed to frequent.
It is a discussion site, is it not? With a variety of individuals, from different walks of life, from different locations throughout the country. All with different, and extremely VALUABLE opinions, and points of view. All of those things which contribute to what a discussion board is. Afterall, when people "discuss", they look at a particular topic by argumentative examination and/or debate. By allowing a discussion to continue, in my opinion, is what will determine whether a discussion site is successful, fun, and interesting. Many of those who have been banned help to make up that "fabric" of interesting differences, and personalities, all which in my opinion, made for a more interesting, and fun site. Sure they kept the moderators busy at times, and maybe sometimes went a little bit too far, but most of the time it was all in harmless fun. It seems that as of late this has become more of a place where your opinion is subject to whether someone else agrees with it, or not. If it is disagreed with, it seems to often become disregarded, or in this case deleted, without allowing for further discussion about it, therefore defeating the sole purpose of the site. That type of deletion can lead people to believe that what they have to say is not valuable that their opinion doesn't matter. Not everything has a clear resolution, or a "right' or "wrong" answer, some things are far more subjective, and can never be resolved, but rather just duscussed. I am not the complaining type, usually I wouldn't, and don't waste my valuable time or energy on it, and coming to this site was informative, entertaining, enjoyment for me, sort of like my morning "newspaper", but sadly, as of late, it seems to be a place full of many unhappy, "powertripping wand waving" individuals. You know, I am a firm believer that everyone has their limits, and some moderation is beneficial, and respectful to all involved, but I also know, and I have learned, that sometimes pressing to hard, leads to it coming back to bite you. Everyone who frequents this site have a common interest, and passion, and the love for an automobile. Perhaps we should be mindful that, the Dodge Viper, American made automobile. American, made in America, representing all the wonderful things about this country...freedom the freedom of speech.
Just my 2 cents, if you feel the need to wave your wands over it...so be it

[Mike Brunton]

GTS Dean made a good point a while back... he said that he knew everything there was to know about the Viper, and since he had gone through the whole process of learning, now his interests had turned to socializing with like-minded individuals.

I would submit that the technical information is ALWAYS going to be put in the area that has the largest number of eyeballs digesting that information. If this site becomes purely a reference tool, then the "other" site will get all the friendliness, camaraderie, and off-topic banter. Advertisers will decide they would rather spend the dough running ads on the more visible site, and the "regular members" will start going where the action is. If this site contains 10% of the user base, and the other site has 90%, (heck of even 60/40), then how long will DC continue to feed this site before they realize their efforts could be better spent elsewhere?

Bottom line? The flow of "official" info here exists because this site is the most popular Viper site, NOT the other way around.

Look at the VetteNet. VetteNet.com used to be the big site - very technically oriented. They have a few hundred members. Corvetteforum.com has something like 40,000 members.

[GTS Dean]

Did I say that? I can't find it in the archives anywhere. Anyway, that's how I feel.

[packetjunkie]

Trick is finding a balance between the two extremes.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>friendliness, camaraderie, and off-topic banter<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very few people here would find the site this "friendly"; its mostly used as a soap box for non-Viper discussions which revolve mostly around attacks on the VCA. I have yet to see a single meaningful topic that covers Viper ownership.

Not that there is anything wrong with that - it just means people will be able to choose between between the two when really what alot of people want is something in the middle.

[The Joker]

Mike,

It is getting old going back and forth. Eventually I will have to decide on which place I will call home.

[packetjunkie]

I suspect a site that catered to the middle would find greater acceptence as an alternative place to hang out while giving people the resources available here. Of course, I'm waiting to hear what the new guidelines will be - I hear they take some of both sides issues into consideration.

[SoCal Rebell]

Very eloquently put Laura, much more so then I ever could. I have the habit of being blunt and to the point, THIS BOARD SUCKS. I hardly ever come here anymore, there's no fire, no passion, there is NOTHING interesting, nothing to spark the curious as it used to be when I spent hours a day here. This has become a cold information only tool. No comraderie. I've gone round and round with moderators to the point of them calling me and I'm sick of it, it's moderating through attrition, I'm not even waiting to get banned I just plain sick and tired of the ordinariness of this place. I love just about all the people here but alot of them are gone and it's a shame.

I hope all the sponsors of this board read this and realize what is going on, I'm not even re-uping my VCA dues because I'm sick of it all. You'll have to excuse me now, I going to another more interesting board where you can say what's on your mind without fear of repercussion.

[Joseph Houss]

"Sometimes we all need to take a deep breath, look at the situation and put it all in proper perspective"

Bravo Laura!

We are all one!

Here's a link to an explanation of what's happening next.
http://vca1.viperclub.org/ubb/Forum1.../006107.html#0

[Vancouver Viper]

I agree this site is getting boring. What ever happned to all the debates and the videos that we were getting everyday?

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Vancouver Viper on 11-05-2002 at 02:08 PM</font>

[SoCal Rebell]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vancouver Viper:
I agree this site is getting boring. What ever happned to all the debates and the videos that we were getting everyday?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And god forbid you show a picture of a girl in a bathing suit, zealots.

[packetjunkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And god forbid you show a picture of a girl in a bathing suit, zealots.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rumor suggests they may be coming back; if so, I've got a years worth of stuff to post.....

[FUSCUCLA1]

Now how come when I say everyone should be treated equally my post gets deleted?

[GTS Dean]

Because despite assurances to the contrary, this board hasn't changed. Today's activity is prima-fascie evidence.

http://members.aol.com/gtsdean/photos/rainvipes2.jpg

<FONT COLOR="Red"><FONT size="6">And I STILL can't post pics to this forum!</FONT s></FONT c>

[Gerald]

Screw this place.

It's a excellent source for the newbies of Viperdom. But for the owners who've had the cars for years and are looking for comradarie (sp?)..... THIS AIN'T THE PLACE

Gerald

[Hoosier Daddy]

BINGO we have a WINNER here!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>

Screw this place.

It's a excellent source for the newbies of Viperdom. But for the owners who've had the cars for years and are looking for comradarie (sp?)..... THIS AIN'T THE PLACE


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[slaughterj]

Banning the social individuals is d@mned dumb, because it is the social aspects which draw people to frequently visit, increasing the time spent on the site and frequency of hits. If people don't frequently visit (i.e., because the frequenters are banned), then technical questions that get posted won't draw many responses. And if such questions don't get responses, then the questions will stop. Then if there are no questions, then there is no activity. And without activity, what's the point of the board, and why would advertisers come here? Duh.

[HP]

The comments posted, not only reflect my feelings, but I think
it reflects a lack of willingness to take the regulatory investment to the level necessary for this forum. I'm not going
to sit here and try to second guess the regulatory actions
taken by the moderators, I know it has to be taxing, with little
reward. The solution is bound to take a lot of effort, PR-work, and innovative approaches. Most board viewers, tune in
because of the board personalities, and without their presence
it will get boring. I enjoyed the wit and perspective, but some posts did get out of line. Serious physical threats aimed
at moderators cannot be tolerated, and no one should permit or
condone this crap. But conflict and arguments, are part of
human dialog, and if you censor this- nothing will ever get solved. It takes effort to be an adversary, and the investment
on both sides, gives each party some common bond(even if they won't admit it). The missing ingredient between banned posters and moderators - is open dialog and involvement. Maybe give
the unrulies some responsibility, like moderator for a day.

[snowmann]

Why don't we have an official vote on this subject and be done with it? The VCA members are the ones that pay the money why don't we get the say? Who's right is it anyway to ban someone from a site that is supported by the community? We deserve some answers and should have the right to decide as a group.

[Steve Ferguson]

Great post Laura, you are right!

I agree, the fun is gone, and that is a shame. But in order for it to be as you say shouldn't the fun be for all? I mean why can a few have it and it is not allowed for others? Let the kids that visit have fun, as well as all the members, moderators, guests, our Dodge friends, PVO and the others that work at bringing this and other things to the table. If ALL could enjoy then we would have site Utopia!

The real shame I see is that there are a lot of good people (on both sides of the table)that feel they have to take a side. That should never happen.

[Mike Brunton]

I hate to say it, but I think it's too late. The other site has achieved critical mass. Like a snowball rolling down a snow-laden hill, at some point it gets too big to stop. As I said elsewhere, the bargaining chip of banning was one that had a diminishing value as time went on. I expressed this to Andy. I think he kinda got it, but the message didn't ring clearly to the top.

Given the choice between something people really like that works now and is fun, and something that people might like that might be fun maybe, which would people choose? Toss in the additional bad taste in some folks mouths due to banning, and what do you get....

[packetjunkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And I STILL can't post pics to this forum!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes you can, Dean.

A while back a decision was made (and discussed here) to make images a link which would allow people to choose before they opened an image. This change only effects the Off Topic area - not the other forums. Any image posted with an {img} tag will be converted to a link.

However, if you are a VCA Member, you can still use the UPLOAD feature to embed photos into your post.

I hope this helps.

[luc]

Steve,

you make some good points and even if I desagree with you,I respect your opinion(s),except when you make fun of my spelling!!!(I have a "good" excuse since English is my 3rd language).

The issue is not that we argue or that even sometimes we say stupid things,it is the censorship.

Don't you think that the VCA board "readers" are smart enough to have their own mind/position on a thread or post and don't need the moderator "protecting" them by deleting such thread/post?

Luc.

[CitySnake]

I am actually thrilled to see that so many "moderate posters" (that's MO) are also somewhat fed up. EVEN LAURA!!! . (Thank you Laura for expressing so eloquently what SO MANY of us are feeling).

It was such fun here...and now it HAS become a terrific place for new Viper owners. Even I am growing weary of posting an answer to the endless stream of "what first mods should I do?" posts.

Regardless of what the "banned" plan to do, I desperately hope that when we have our "NEW" Board, they (the Banned) are ALL invited back! If they don't return, so be it. If they do return only to cross the newly designed and refined "line" again (to be banned again), so be it. But they deserve an invitation! If not by the moderators, they are sorely missed by this Board!

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GTS Dean:
Utopian dream
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

aint never gonna happen.

Well said, Laura!

A year ago something similar happened at MoparChat, at least as far as individuals getting banned. But there, it was out of hand, with personal attacks and hate threats and e-terrorism. In Moparchat's case the banned individuals were banned for a real reason. They were warned publicly and privately before being banned. Since then MoparChat has not been the same and I now frequent Dodge Talk, which sprang up shortly after the bannings took place. I am even a moderator at Dodge Talk now. I've only actually had to moderate once when someone posted a post in the wrong forum.

What went on here was piddley and I can see no reason why there were bannings here, unless there were posts that I didn't see that were much, much worse than the deleted posts that I did see. Already several new Viper boards have sprung up, and other than tech info, much of this place has become so sterile that I quickly read what I want and go on to other boards.

"To protect the children." I'm sure is the rational for all of this censorship, since there are some underage Viper fans out there. I get 2-3 e-mails daily spamming me asking if I want to see live nude cameras or farm girls with their loving pet animals. So does everyone in my family. We just delete the spam. If kids wants to see porn, they can get to it a whole lot more easily than coming here. And I've never seen porn here, even the stuff that got deleted.

[TacDoc]

All I know is this site has been BORING for the last two weeks. I used to spend a couple of hours a day on here, now I can scan it in about 5 minutes and I am gone.

[silverviper]

Viperess, well said!

I find it particularly ironic that on a national election day, the management of this website again decides to silence dissenting opinions by deleting their writings and maintaining bans.

Again, very disappointing.

[packetjunkie]

I agree with just about everything you said, Laura; and I felt like I should stand and salute after reading those last couple of sentences.

Personally, I feel a bit disenchanted with the site lately. I can see where it is going and I think the site will lose some of its flavor in doing so. There are those who would like this to be a place such as it was a year or two ago (more tolerence for subject matter). Then there are others who see this as strictly a tool for sharing information on Vipers - nothing else should be allowed. More of a BUSINESS ONLY site rather than a PLEASURE board.

Instead of a site that I checked on a regular basis, I expect the site will become more of a reference tool that I use when I am looking for something specific, but not a place where I hang my hat and shoot the breeze with others. The site will continue to be a valuable resource for those seeking help with or information about Dodge Vipers - but it remains to see how the new rules will effect casual (or lively) discussions.

However, the banned do not want to come back, so I doubt they care one way or another. Although many still lurk and take the subjects to their site for discussion, I dont see this site getting back to the way it was. Indeed, some of the banned burned enough bridges that I doubt they would be allowed back. A shame, too; because everyone went a bit overboard.

[-RUNNR]

I must also agree. The site is becoming more of an informational hub than a social lounge. While this in itself is not a purely bad thing, it is a shame that there is a seperation.

As MP stated, the banned do not want to come back. They are happy where they are now. And I'm sure that makes many of you quite happy while it saddens others.

It sucks more for those of us who are still here that we must go back and forth between the two areas to interact with our friends.

[Viper99]

Amen, Laura. I couldn't agree more.
I just thought the site was being made more in keeping with the style of the new Viper....Boring and drab!