France - a different view

[Yves]

OK - need to vent.
I am by no means French (though the name might suggest so) but am kind of getting annoyed by the bashing the French people IN GENERAL seem to take. Can we condemn a whole nation because of the political decisions of their leaders ?
Are they all cowards ? No. France has an impressive military history. Until 1815 it was France against the rest of the world (and pretty succesful). They even helped you guys out in your independence war, n'est-ce pas ?
First and Second world war they did not have the luxury of having an ocean between themselves and the aggressor. Bad luck. The French resistance was pretty courageous though.

As far as their current military force is concerned, they are still a force to be reckoned with. I do agree that they want to do things in their own chauvinistic way (develop their own fighter jets as opposed to sharing costs with different countries, and so on...). They'd still be able to put up a good fight though.
Back during my (mandatory) military service I was with the Belgian Para Commando regiment (comparable to US green berets). One of the forces I loved to train with is ironically the French Legion. Those guys were tougher than [******].
I even bet ya they'd give an arm and a leg to duke it out in Iraq.

No flame intended. Just observing.

[GR8_ASP]

Since you bring up France can you answer what country in Europe has the greatest amount of trade with Iraq? Oil, military munitions and technology (nuclear technology). Their political leadership has chosen Iraq over the US. I say screw 'em.

In the last hundred years what has France done for the US? Now compare that to what we have done for France. And for this we get a political black eye and stab in the back. I say screw 'em.

[Vic]

Yeah, but Ron, they gave us a big copper lady!

[Vic]

Ever see Jean Claude Van Damme in Lion Heart? There is a little perspective for the culturally myopic in there, that shows the intensely harsh conditions that the troops in the French Foreign Legion face. A lot of criminals had to join to escape jail time, but its a toss up as to which is worse, jail time, or serving in the Legion.

At one time, the French were also imperialistic expansionists, and occupied Vietnam, among various other countries around the world.

So now the pot is calling the kettle black. Didn't hear of mass protests when France was exercising its global reach.

[SRT10]

OK - need to vent.

France has an impressive military history. Until 1815 it was France against the rest of the world (and pretty succesful).

You've got to be kidding! If you have to go back to Napoleonic years that's pretty lame. WW2= hiding behind the Maginot Line,forming Vichy France,collapsing to the Germans in 10 days and abandoning the British at Dunkirk. They were and still are a poor example of a fighting force. If you want a first person account of life in the French Foreign Legion read the book titled "Mouth full of Rocks". The Legion is full of criminals and drunks that the French have difficulty controlling.

[Yves]

You've got to be kidding! If you have to go back to Napoleonic years that's pretty lame. WW2= hiding behind the Maginot Line,forming Vichy France,collapsing to the Germans in 10 days and abandoning the British at Dunkirk. They were and still are a poor example of a fighting force. If you want a first person account of life in the French Foreign Legion read the book titled "Mouth full of Rocks". The Legion is full of criminals and drunks that the French have difficulty controlling.

About the French Legion : I did some NATO maneuvers with them, back in the early nineties. My experience is first hand, not from a book. As I said, one of the most impressive forces I've seen at work. It's not like it's still a bunch of criminals hiding in the desert. Those boys were tough. Yeah sure - we smoked some dope in the C-130 and then poured it down with some whisky Gives you wings on the way down.

Why should one discount what a nation has done in the past ? The US is currently the most dominant power in the world. Similar to Egypt, the Greek, the Romans, Austrians, Great Britain, France,... the US will fall from power (there's something cooking in China if you haven't noticed yet). Is that going to take away from what your soldiers have done over the past 50 years ?

Just...look at the big picture. Chauvinism is actually hitting French levels over here.

[Vic]

You have to wonder why they didn't build the Maginot line around Belgium. That was too easy for the Germans, like "lets see, we can either go through all those guns, cannons, barbed wire and trenches, or uhm, we can go through Belgium."

French resistance might have done better if they had more French resistors!

From what I understand, the French think we are stupid, crude, and unenlightened, and they object bitterly to American values, and disdain our successes. And don't try to speak their language, unless you can speak it EXACTLY perfectly, with no American accent.

And don't even ask them about Mickey Mouse, or Paris Disneyland, I hear it makes the veins stand out on their temples.

[Yves]

Vic,

I am the first one to admit that the French can be hard to deal with. Having lived north of them the first 22 years of my life, I've gone through some rough times myself. Once you get away from Paris or the Cote d'Azur people tend to be really friendly though.
I visited France on several occasions for both business and pleasure. As said, you need to stay away from the tourist hangouts. As far as business is concerned, there's also lots of intercultural differences. Very hierarchical over there. Big offices, deep carpet, bosses expect you to call them 'Sir'. I spent quite some time in the Paris Financial district and hated it ('Arche de la Defense' area).
On the flipside, I really love all the extreme sports and the gutsyness of some of the French. I am a Nike executive and have been exposed to some of the stuff they do in the Alpes or around the lakes in summer(e.g. Anecy). That younger generation just loves everything that's American. Do not always believe what's written in the press. Over here everybody seems to think that ALL of Europe is against the US (spoonfed by the news). Over there Bush is portrayed as an idiot who just wants war. All I'm saying is that we should try to form our own opinion.

As a side note : the Maginot Line was not extended to cover the Belgian part since the French did not think the Germans could penetrate the Ardennes. Advance in German tank technology prove them different. There's still some remnants of the Maginot Line which is open to the public. Worthwhile visiting while you're there. Can be combined with Bastogne in a daytrip . And hey - the circuit of Spa-Francorchamps is only 1 hour away

[ViperGTS]

>>>Over here everybody seems to think that ALL of Europe is against the US (spoonfed by the news).<<<

Can´t agree more.

In the news you see the people demonstrating against the war only. You will not see the people supporting the US.

[MichaelP]

The only thing wrong with France is all the French people there.

[Vic]

Thanks for the info, Yves.

Don't the young kids in Paris have this thing, where they learn to climb buildings, jump walls, and tumbling kinda stuff like that? Looks like something out of a Jackie Chan movie.

[VPRVENM97]

OK - need to vent.
I am by no means French (though the name might suggest so) but am kind of getting annoyed by the bashing the French people IN GENERAL seem to take. Can we condemn a whole nation because of the political decisions of their leaders ?
Are they all cowards ? No. France has an impressive military history. Until 1815 it was France against the rest of the world (and pretty succesful). They even helped you guys out in your independence war, n'est-ce pas ?
First and Second world war they did not have the luxury of having an ocean between themselves and the aggressor. Bad luck. The French resistance was pretty courageous though.

As far as their current military force is concerned, they are still a force to be reckoned with. I do agree that they want to do things in their own chauvinistic way (develop their own fighter jets as opposed to sharing costs with different countries, and so on...). They'd still be able to put up a good fight though.
Back during my (mandatory) military service I was with the Belgian Para Commando regiment (comparable to US green berets). One of the forces I loved to train with is ironically the French Legion. Those guys were tougher than [******].
I even bet ya they'd give an arm and a leg to duke it out in Iraq.

No flame intended. Just observing.

<font color="blue">A picture is worth thousands of words. Such graditude from a courageous nation... I do agree the French Foreign Legion are some bad dudes. Are they French? Yes, the French did assist the colonies over 225 years ago and we've more then shown our gratitude. </font>

[Steve Ferguson]

I think we sometimes confuse the PEOPLE and the particular POLITICIANS of a country. I am all for the war as are many of my international friends, but that does not mean that the politicians making the decisions agree. Hell we have AMERICANS bitching about the war.

[viperdoctor]

Can we condemn a whole nation because of the political decisions of their leaders ?

Yes. They voted for their leader.

[MichaelP]

I think we sometimes confuse the PEOPLE and the particular POLITICIANS of a country. I am all for the war as are many of my international friends, but that does not mean that the politicians making the decisions agree. Hell we have AMERICANS bitching about the war.

And that is what we are bringing to Iraq, the right to free speach.