Why McCain doesn't understand Iraq

[DrDJ]

And 99% of Americans don't either...

washingtonpost.com


"And this is the war that John McCain wants to wage until victory is ours. What no one -- including McCain, Petraeus, Crocker and Bush -- can do is articulate just what such a victory would look like."

DrDJ

[Warfang]

Originally Posted by DrDJ

And 99% of Americans don't either...

washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines


"And this is the war that John McCain wants to wage until victory is ours. What no one -- including McCain, Petraeus, Crocker and Bush -- can do is articulate just what such a victory would look like."

DrDJ

Wow.. that's make you the enlightened 1%? You're so special!

[DrDJ]

Originally Posted by Warfang

Wow.. that's make you the enlightened 1%? You're so special!

I didn't write the article. I did read it twice and I still don't understand WTH we are trying to accomplish over there. I don't think that the author does either.

DrDJ

[black mamba1]

The United States has NEVER won a guerilla war, ever. Problem is we are accustomed to fighting standing armies. In Afghanistan we fought the Taliban. With the help of Nato and the Northern Alliance, we defeated the Taliban, but are still there keeping the pressure on its remnants.

But, in Iraq, just like in Vietnam, we are fighting against an ideology, not a standing army. We are basicaly fighting people who hate us, and they consist of anyone and everyone living in Iraq or that sneaks across the border to fight us in Iraq. We have loosely named them Al Queda and Insurgents. This type of action is really a Police Action, and not really a war. The enemy are really criminals and terrorists. They murder and rape anyone that gets in their way, but they are not an army. They wear no uniforms, they have no tanks, ships, helicopters, etc. All they have is stealth, b/c they run shops and drive taxis, then they grab an AK-47 and shoot at our troops, or use a cell phone to detonate a road side bomb.

This is a Police Action of attrition, and for the hearts and minds of the people. The American public will not stand for a war of attrition. And the Middle East will never give the United States their hearts and minds.

This Police Action should be fought by Iraqis and by other Middle Eastern countries.

[Andrew/USPWR]

Originally Posted by DrDJ

I didn't write the article. I did read it twice and I still don't understand WTH we are trying to accomplish over there. I don't think that the author does either.

DrDJ

We're avoiding the mistake europe did with Germany. Thinking they could appease them.

Be a big boy. Somebody has to play the Daddy and look out for our future. We can't all be the fun uncle in the world.

[Andrew/USPWR]

Originally Posted by black mamba1

The United States has NEVER won a guerilla war, ever. Problem is we are accustomed to fighting standing armies. In Afghanistan we fought the Taliban. With the help of Nato and the Northern Alliance, we defeated the Taliban, but are still there keeping the pressure on its remnants.

But, in Iraq, just like in Vietnam, we are fighting against an ideology, not a standing army. We are basicaly fighting people who hate us, and they consist of anyone and everyone living in Iraq or that sneaks across the border to fight us in Iraq. We have loosely named them Al Queda and Insurgents. This type of action is really a Police Action, and not really a war. The enemy are really criminals and terrorists. They murder and rape anyone that gets in their way, but they are not an army. They wear no uniforms, they have no tanks, ships, helicopters, etc. All they have is stealth, b/c they run shops and drive taxis, then they grab an AK-47 and shoot at our troops, or use a cell phone to detonate a road side bomb.

This is a Police Action of attrition, and for the hearts and minds of the people. The American public will not stand for a war of attrition. And the Middle East will never give the United States their hearts and minds.

This Police Action should be fought by Iraqis and by other Middle Eastern countries.

I would think we're giving them all the guns and weaponry to do it themselves but, they just don't have the smarts or balls to do it.
Someday.

[black mamba1]

Originally Posted by Andrew/USPWR

We're avoiding the mistake europe did with Germany. Thinking they could appease them.

Be a big boy. Somebody has to play the Daddy and look out for our future. We can't all be the fun uncle in the world.

Daddy's job is to take care of and keep order in his immediate family...that would be us, the US mainland. If Daddy is gonna try to keep order in the entire community he will need the help of his brothers and friends, aka, allies.

We have no allies to speak of in Iraq. Thats why we should turn it over to the Egyptians, the Saudis, and the Jordanians. Plus, its just too damn expensive paying for this all out of our pocket. We are paying to protect the oil fields that is supposed to be paying for our protection....

[Andrew/USPWR]

Originally Posted by DrDJ

And 99% of Americans don't either...

washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines


"And this is the war that John McCain wants to wage until victory is ours. What no one -- including McCain, Petraeus, Crocker and Bush -- can do is articulate just what such a victory would look like."

DrDJ

Saudi Arabia is sticking it to us too with the cost of oil and refusing to pump more.

It’s better to deal with Iran now before they get their nukes up and running. That’s to the EU for handling that for us.

[Andrew/USPWR]

Originally Posted by black mamba1

Daddy's job is to take care of and keep order in his immediate family...that would be us, the US mainland. If Daddy is gonna try to keep order in the entire community he will need the help of his brothers and friends, aka, allies.

We have allies, Britain, Australia, and all the former Soviet block nations.
France, Germany, Russia and China are nobody's ally.

We have to police the world because nobody else does.

We have no allies to speak of in Iraq. Thats why we should turn it over to the Egyptians, the Saudis, and the Jordanians. Plus, its just too damn expensive paying for this all out of our pocket. We are paying to protect the oil fields that is supposed to be paying for our protection....

Why don't they offer? Or just pitch in?

Because they know freedom in Iraq will spill over into all of the Middle East.

Why do you think China won't give back Tibet?

[black mamba1]

Originally Posted by Andrew/USPWR

Why don't they offer? Or just pitch in?

Because they know freedom in Iraq will spill over into all of the Middle East.

Why do you think China won't give back Tibet?

Probably the same reason we would not let the South form an independent nation in 1861. And probably why we wouldnt let Florida go if Floridians got together and tried to secede, or why we wont let religious sects withdraw in Utah or Texas to form their own nation.

Aint no country gonna let no part of its country go w/out a fight. Never has, never will.

I am not sure we will get freedom that looks like what we have over here. It may look more like what Pakistan has, or maybe even what Russia has. But just like Russia did it by themselves after never having democracy before, these guys need to as well. Us doing it alone is just wayyyyyy to expensive in my book.

[Andrew/USPWR]

Originally Posted by black mamba1

Probably the same reason we would not let the South form an independent nation in 1861. And probably why we wouldnt let Florida go if Floridians got together and tried to secede, or why we wont let religious sects withdraw in Utah or Texas to form their own nation.

Aint no country gonna let no part of its country go w/out a fight. Never has, never will.

I am not sure we will get freedom that looks like what we have over here. It may look more like what Pakistan has, or maybe even what Russia has. But just like Russia did it by themselves after never having democracy before, these guys need to as well. Us doing it alone is just wayyyyyy to expensive in my book.

I would settle for Turkey even.

[Warfang]

Originally Posted by black mamba1

The United States has NEVER won a guerilla war, ever.

Men have also never landed on the moon, or travelled faster than the speed of sound at one time. If we only do things that others have done before, we'll never really get anything done. Leaders seek to accomplish the impossible. Followers whine and complain.

Also, as a war, we WON Vietnam. We lost politically because the likes of the war protesters now that collaborated with the communists. Only they've learned their PR lesson. Instead of spitting on our troops, they claim to "support them by bringing them home and abandoning their mission," all the while cranking out movies that show our troops and their leaders as corrupt, drug abusers, cowards, rapists and murderers.

Oddly enough, the left that preaches love and peace are the ones responsible for the millions killed in Vietnam after we bailed... literally and figuratively. The hippies at home tied our troop's hands, while the leftist regime in North Vietnam slaughtered their own.

You can't win the hearts and minds of people who think they'll get 75 virgins if they strap on a bomb and kill innocent men women and children. All you can do is kill as many of them as you can and hope their children isn't infected by the same mental retardation.

[black mamba1]

Originally Posted by Andrew/USPWR

Saudi Arabia is sticking it to us too with the cost of oil and refusing to pump more.

It’s better to deal with Iran now before they get their nukes up and running. That’s to the EU for handling that for us.

I hate to say this, but you cannot stop brain power. A smart group of 14 yr olds could build a nuke of the type we dropped on Hiroshima if they had the plutonium from what is available on the internet information-wise. It is just a matter of time. If we cannot stop tons of drugs from getting into our country, you know we cannot stop North Korea or Pakistan or Russia from smuggling a few lbs (thats all it takes) of plutonium to anywhere and to anyone they wish.

Just like you cannot use force to keep your wife from cheating on you, you cannot use force to stop nuclear proliferation. All you can do is delay it. The best approach is to create an atmosphere so that your wife does NOT want to cheat on you, or so people do not want to blow you up.

Also, is it really moral for us to have 30,000 nukes, and for our friends to have nukes, but tell (or try to force) other countries you cant have them? We can come up w/ all the treaties and reasons we want for denying other countries nukes, but they see it for what it is...hippocracy. They will never go for it. Never.

Its just a matter of time, and you cannot go to war w/ every ambitious nation that wants to build nukes..like North Korea, Iran, and only god knows who else.

[black mamba1]

Originally Posted by Andrew/USPWR

I would settle for Turkey even.

Yep, me too.

[Warfang]

Originally Posted by black mamba1

Probably the same reason we would not let the South form an independent nation in 1861. And probably why we wouldnt let Florida go if Floridians got together and tried to secede, or why we wont let religious sects withdraw in Utah or Texas to form their own nation.

Aint no country gonna let no part of its country go w/out a fight. Never has, never will.

I have to agree with you on that one. Although I'm not 100% current on my Tibet/China matters, generically your points are valid. A country can't just let parts secede. An invasion is an invasion... even if it's from within.