Supreme Court reverses Sotomayor endorsement on affirmative action case

[UNRATLD]

This is why I love the Supreme Court:

White firefighters win Supreme Court appeal - Yahoo! News

Clarence Thomas did not dissent.

[Canyon707]

They got it right.

[Vipuronr]

That's very interesting. Promotions in any industry should be based on knowledge and performance, Firefighting being no different.

However, the importance of the above is heightened for firefighters, police and any other job where mistakes can cost lives.

Ask yourself....would you want to follow a Lieutenant into a burning building if you think he/she became a Lieutenant for anything other than knowledge and performance?



By the way, I am a Lieutenant.....

Peter

[ViperTony]

New Haven is a bleeding heart's paradise. Remember this is a city that gives out free ID cards to illegals and allows them to live and work there untouched. Illegals have more rights in New Haven so why not 'minorities' too? It's a classic example of a city trying to make two wrongs equate to a right as opposed to doing the right thing. This was more of a slap in the face for those 'minorities' that didn't pass the exam....and even more so for the ones that did.

The news reports fail to disclose the exact numbers of applicants by race. Some of these reports paint a picture that only whites passed the exam which is not true. In fact:

Seventy-seven firefighters took the lieutenant test — 43 whites, 19 blacks and 15 Hispanics. Of them, 34 candidates passed — 25 whites, six blacks and three Hispanics. With eight vacancies, 10 candidates under civil service rules would have been eligible for promotion. All would have been white.

Forty-one candidates competed for the captain test — 25 whites, eight blacks and eight Hispanics. Of the 22 people who passed, 16 were white, three were black and three were Hispanic. With seven vacancies, seven whites and two Hispanics could have been considered under civil service rules.

Perhaps an even bigger mind boggler is Justice Ginsburg: In a dissent read from the bench, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg questioned the fairness of the test, which was 60 percent written and 40 percent oral. "Relying so heavily on pencil-and-paper exams to select firefighters is a dubious practice," Ginsburg said, calling the majority ruling "troubling."

What is she saying? That the written part was unfair to the applicants? I just don't get the statement above. Firefighters DO have to read and write, even more so when they're promoted to higher ranks that requires working with paper/building codes/training...think building inspections and the amount of paper work/code literature required. I'm reaching here but I'm assuming she's arguing that the firefighters that failed the test, including minorities, failed because they had difficulty with the reading and writing portion of the exam. If she's not saying it, she's certainly implying it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't passing the Bar exam require a lot of reading/writing/pen paper? Wasn't that one of the mechanisms she had to utilize on her journey to becoming a judge?

All of this because a city failed to do the right thing and caved into fears of being sued. Well, how did that work out for you New Haven?

[Bobpantax]

I am increasingly disappointed by people, including Judges, making excuses for people who will not do what is required to compete. In the 1800s and the early 1900s, Irish, Italians and Jews were treated like dirt in most of this country. They sucked it up; put up with the flack; struggled to amass money and political power and, after many years of struggle laid claim to some turf. The fact that some individuals attempted to obtain something they did not deserve by allowing a city to, in essence, officially brand them as inferior is pathetic and disappointing. If I was a member of one of those minorities, I would have told those who flunked the test to get off their asses; study harder, and take the test again. I would have told the City leaders that the brain of a minority person is equal to the brain of anyone else and that they should not, by their thinly veiled racist actions, imply otherwise. If the individuals who flunked the test had had an ounce of pride and self respect, they would not have allowed themselves to be so badly exploited by the City. As for Justice Ginsburg, she has about as much understanding of what a person needs to be a good leader in a fire department as Madonna has in being Celibate.

[PatentLaw]

Discrimination, based upon any color, is wrong. Court got it right.

[slaughterj]

Unfortunately, being a 5-4 decision, it will "color" how the decision is considered.

[eucharistos]

remember friends, racism is over now that bho is president....

or is it now possible for all to be racist

remember the logic of the past that you cannot be racist if you don't have power

[Frankster]

Allowing professional advancement based on acheivement is racist.

Isn't that what the minority on the supreme court said in its decision?


Isn't it racist to favor one group over another? I mean, we don't really want a colorblind society.......do we?

Every time the US Gov asks me my ethnic origin I refuse to answer simply because thay have no right to use this information in making racially based decisions.

[Bobpantax]

Originally Posted by slaughterj

Unfortunately, being a 5-4 decision, it will "color" how the decision is considered.

Not quite true. They reversed and entered summary judgment against the city. They did not reverse and remand for a new hearing to see if the test discussed in the case was met by the facts. The opinion is a strong message that what the city did will not be, and should not be, tolerated by the Courts.

[black mamba1]

There is a bigger issue here than anyone in this forum is discussing, and if you read Ginsbergs opinion in its entirety, you will understand why she (along with all the democratic Justices) dissented.

And furthermore, this is not a landmark decision..this decision, like that of the 2000 election decision to put Bush in office, was along party lines. 5-4 is not a landmark decision. It is a decision that will most likely be ruled differently in 2-3 or so years when Obama tilts the court towards progressives.

The bigger issue is that New Haven has a long history of discriminating against blacks and Jews. It took a riot in the 1970's to get New Haven to hire blacks to the Police and Fire departments. Discrimination is still very much alive and well in this country. There is an acitve recent thread in VCA RIGHT NOW where some young black guys driving a Diablo were labeled as "pharmacists" (drug dealers). And I am suing a neighbor right now for accusing me of being the same, despite the fact that I have a degree in Mech. Engineering and he only has high school degree. Despite the fact that I went to college to earn my success....according to my ignorant neighbor...there is no way I could have achieved what I have honestly...I must be a drug dealer. And there you have the mindset of many (stupid ignorant people) people in America. And that is our reality. Eliminating Affirmative Action and several aspects of the Civil Rights Act of 1965 would really make us a race free nation...but as long as ignorant racist exists....so will the remedies.

Discrimination occurs in this society so deeply and on so many levels it is actually embarassing as a nation to have to admit to this ridiculous attitude we have while we bomb or boycott other nations for their lack of human rights, etc.

In this particular case I happen to have lived in New Haven and I know many of these firefighers...and I think the Supreme Court ruled correctly in this case. But I also live every day as a black man that drives a Bentley and a Viper. And I also have vivid memories of what was said about Obama when he was a candidate.

Dont kid yourself and shroud yourself in justification.

This nation still has a BIG problem with racism. THIS ruling was correct. But that means nothing in the bigger scheme of things when it comes to flat out racism continued to be disguised as..."well, he is just not right for us", or "he is a muslim" or "he is not a team player" or "he ran off and abandonned his state and family to cheat on his wife and rob his kids of Father's Day"....OOOPS! I am sorry, that was the GOP Governor Sanford, a Christian Conservative.



The GOP has ****ed up so bad...its no longer a fair fight. And with our Super Majority...I am wondering why they will even show up to work for the next two years!

[Shelby3]

Racism cannot ever be legislated from a society. When that is attempted, it actually makes it worse and encourages the affected minorities to underachieve. Racism is overcome in the manner Bob described and in no other way. The liberals are going to make it much worse but many of them actually like it that way because it energizes their base. As a nation, we are heading into a very dark period.

[GR8_ASP]

I have lived in Brazil for several years. Brazil has an even more diverse population than the US. Yes, even blacks that originated back in the slave trading years. But also indian as well (they are not called native american there).
Brazil is much less racially based. I saw none of the racial discrimination or preference that is observed here. In Brazil they are all just equal. Yes there are differences based on family standing, money, power and all that. But no race based differential. Now how did they do that without reverse discrimination? Without using another wrong to try to make a right?

That Keith is the main problem with your desire. It requoires that someone be wronged, who in all probability did not gain from the wrong so many years ago.

[Frankster]

You said......"but as long as ignorant racist exists....so will the remedies".

The remedies you espouse negatively affect decent people. In effect you are punishing the whole class because one kid chewed bubble gum. That is a Liberal way of doing things.

Affirmative action is a wrong to try and correct another wrong. So does that make it right to punish an innocent person who is only trying to improve his life?

We got an idiot black president, fer cryin' out loud, so there is another reason to get rid of affirmative action. The government should not be in the business of favoring one race over another, period.

[eucharistos]

Originally Posted by black mamba1

There is a bigger issue here than anyone in this forum is discussing, and if you read Ginsbergs opinion in its entirety, you will understand why she (along with all the democratic Justices) dissented.

And furthermore, this is not a landmark decision..this decision, like that of the 2000 election decision to put Bush in office, was along party lines. 5-4 is not a landmark decision. It is a decision that will most likely be ruled differently in 2-3 or so years when Obama tilts the court towards progressives.

The bigger issue is that New Haven has a long history of discriminating against blacks and Jews. It took a riot in the 1970's to get New Haven to hire blacks to the Police and Fire departments. Discrimination is still very much alive and well in this country. There is an acitve recent thread in VCA RIGHT NOW where some young black guys driving a Diablo were labeled as "pharmacists" (drug dealers). And I am suing a neighbor right now for accusing me of being the same, despite the fact that I have a degree in Mech. Engineering and he only has high school degree. Despite the fact that I went to college to earn my success....according to my ignorant neighbor...there is no way I could have achieved what I have honestly...I must be a drug dealer. And there you have the mindset of many (stupid ignorant people) people in America. And that is our reality. Eliminating Affirmative Action and several aspects of the Civil Rights Act of 1965 would really make us a race free nation...but as long as ignorant racist exists....so will the remedies.

Discrimination occurs in this society so deeply and on so many levels it is actually embarassing as a nation to have to admit to this ridiculous attitude we have while we bomb or boycott other nations for their lack of human rights, etc.

In this particular case I happen to have lived in New Haven and I know many of these firefighers...and I think the Supreme Court ruled correctly in this case. But I also live every day as a black man that drives a Bentley and a Viper. And I also have vivid memories of what was said about Obama when he was a candidate.

Dont kid yourself and shroud yourself in justification.

This nation still has a BIG problem with racism. THIS ruling was correct. But that means nothing in the bigger scheme of things when it comes to flat out racism continued to be disguised as..."well, he is just not right for us", or "he is a muslim" or "he is not a team player" or "he ran off and abandonned his state and family to cheat on his wife and rob his kids of Father's Day"....OOOPS! I am sorry, that was the GOP Governor Sanford, a Christian Conservative.



The GOP has ****ed up so bad...its no longer a fair fight. And with our Super Majority...I am wondering why they will even show up to work for the next two years!

bm1, it is posts like this from you that make me read what you post, in it you are so wrong and so right in the same post


if you would, pls define Christian as you used it above


peace viper brother



p.s. since you went thru w/ suing your neighbor for the slander, i hope you break him financially (<-- man that sounded bad)

[eucharistos]

Originally Posted by Frankster

We got an idiot black president,

i was on the fence for awhile as to whether he is an idiot, puppet or what and have come to the conclusion he is an arrogant America hater who is bent on reshaping the country into a _______-ist (fill in the blank with socia-, commun-, etc) utopia with his arrogant elitist type in control.

btw - bm1 would hate it as he (seems to be) is more traditional American than what bho is moving toward

[Solid Red 98]

Originally Posted by Frankster

You said......"but as long as ignorant racist exists....so will the remedies".

We got an idiot black president, fer cryin' out loud, so there is another reason to get rid of affirmative action. The government should not be in the business of favoring one race over another, period.

Perhaps this honestly elected "idiot Black president" will have a better chance at elevating the U.S. to its espoused greatness than all of the idiot White presidents that have preceded him. Why no mention of the eight years of undisputed maniacal lunacy that we have just endured? That's a big part of the problem.

Eliminating racism is all about balance, and truthfully, no one really wants it. It sounds good to pretend to embrace it, but the fact of the matter is, racism is about power sharing. Who ever has a controlling interest in things, whether they be White, Brown, Black, Yellow or Other; that group will cling to power by any means necessary and discrimination is a convenient semi-passive fortification like a mote that keeps challengers at bay while more permanent solutions are contemplated. Alas like all fixed fortifications, eventual failure is inevitable and the management changes. In the US Whites have always been at the head of things, and those days are coming to a close. Blacks have traditionally run point in the battle for equality and there have been successes. Those successes have come at a great human cost--years and years of carnage. Now there are other forces with different flags and agendas moving onto the battle field with greater numbers and foreign backing. The world cultures that spawned the U.S. may inevitably reclaim it. Who knows the future, but one thing is for certain CHANGE is a irresistible force and those who doggedly fight it will succumb to those who are a part of it--simple physics. Turn the page. From the structurally removed standpoint of the historian these epic battles and cold wars are a great read. To all of us who occupy the turned page it can seem like Armageddon. I have seen many changes in my years and I've come away with the understanding that the good old days never were for a great many and the future is partly about how you live today so be as progressive as the sunrise and catch the wave... The alternative is to be pummeled by it.

I would love to see affirmative action consigned to history books because it was never a really good solution and it could only be a temporary bridge between the badly structured then and the weird now. But it will take leaps of faith from all involved to eliminate the need for some compensating behavior many quarters. Just a visual survey of political/social posts on this site demonstrate that much work needs to be done. Communication will take us some distance but belief in unified sense of destiny, participation and ownership will take us to the next level. Ethnic definition , labels and requirements need to be dropped, but then there's that balance/honesty
thing again. We need luck, blessings and good weather.

[black mamba1]

Originally Posted by Shelby3

Racism cannot ever be legislated from a society. When that is attempted, it actually makes it worse and encourages the affected minorities to underachieve. Racism is overcome in the manner Bob described and in no other way. The liberals are going to make it much worse but many of them actually like it that way because it energizes their base. As a nation, we are heading into a very dark period.

If you are a conservative, yes, the period will be very dark for you. If you are a progressive, the period will be very bright for you.

You must understand, the only remedy that will work to fight ignorance is legislation. The South did not end slavery out of their good will to do so, it took a very bloody Civil War and almost a million casualties. The South did not end Jim Crow out of their good will and "Christian" good nature, it took race riots, sit-ins, and Federal Troops with rifles to force ignorance from being legally enforced and to prevent one set of human beings from placing themselves in a false cateragory of "superior".

The legislation to fight racism does not promote undeserving minorities, it is to combat the false sense of superiority that racists hold. And that false sense of superiority is why so many people in the world have a negative few of America. We say one thing, while often times practicing another. Thank goodness most Americans have moved beyond this....and thank goodness for Obama.

[black mamba1]

Originally Posted by eucharistos

bm1, it is posts like this from you that make me read what you post, in it you are so wrong and so right in the same post


if you would, pls define Christian as you used it above


peace viper brother



p.s. since you went thru w/ suing your neighbor for the slander, i hope you break him financially (<-- man that sounded bad)

I admit I get animated in my posts b/c I have strong views. However, my posts pale in comparison to the venom coming from the right against Obama and his supporters, so I will never apologize for my posts.

Governor Sanford had the nerve to rely on his Christian principals when trying to explain his self-serving behavior, his lying, and his adultery. And many on the "Christian" right are duplicitious, in that they rely on Christian principles when it suits them, and abandon them when they dont.

[black mamba1]

Originally Posted by eucharistos

i was on the fence for awhile as to whether he is an idiot, puppet or what and have come to the conclusion he is an arrogant America hater who is bent on reshaping the country into a _______-ist (fill in the blank with socia-, commun-, etc) utopia with his arrogant elitist type in control.

btw - bm1 would hate it as he (seems to be) is more traditional American than what bho is moving toward

Strong white men are considered...well...strong. Strong black men are considered...arrogant. At least by those who usually do not feel too good about themselves it seems to be.

Obama has a very high approval rating. Obama won 9 of George Bush states. Obama is the most popular president on the international scene in American history. Obama won the vote of the vast majority of higher educated Americans.

Despite what the minute number of folk in this forum think about him...those numbers and stats speak for themselves.

[EllowViper]

Let me know when all applications for this and for that simply say Yes or No to qualification X, Y, and Z. No name, sex, age, race, school name/association, etcetera required on the application. Once you get past ALL the irrelevant data that is used as explicit and implicit means to determine a hiring – promotion solution, then we can talk. The most FRUSTRATING Master's class I took was EMPLOYMENT LAW. I can't even attempt to discuss case law regarding EEO, Affirmative action, Workplace right to privacy, sexual harassment, Employment at will, Illegal search/seizure, “disparity”, and on and on. It’s all cut from the same thread as this POS case. I don’t know how anyone would want to be a business owner with more than the magic number of 38 employees.

[black mamba1]

Originally Posted by GR8_ASP

I have lived in Brazil for several years. Brazil has an even more diverse population than the US. Yes, even blacks that originated back in the slave trading years. But also indian as well (they are not called native american there).
Brazil is much less racially based. I saw none of the racial discrimination or preference that is observed here. In Brazil they are all just equal. Yes there are differences based on family standing, money, power and all that. But no race based differential. Now how did they do that without reverse discrimination? Without using another wrong to try to make a right?

That Keith is the main problem with your desire. It requoires that someone be wronged, who in all probability did not gain from the wrong so many years ago.

The problem is that the wrongs are not so many years ago...they still exist today. But you are not targeted so you have no idea what I am talking about. Anyone ever accuse you of being a drug dealer b/c you drive a super charged Viper?

I didnt think so. And if we do nothing, nothing gets done.

[Ulysses]

Originally Posted by Solid Red 98

Perhaps this honestly elected "idiot Black president" will have a better chance at elevating the U.S. to its espoused greatness than all of the idiot White presidents that have preceded him. Why no mention of the eight years of undisputed maniacal lunacy that we have just endured? That's a big part of the problem.

Honestly elected? I was not aware that all the others were dis-honestly elected as you seem to be eluding.

Undisputed?! I am disputing it right here, right now. Only 2 of those 8 years were maniacal lunacy.

[Ulysses]

Originally Posted by black mamba1

If you are a conservative, yes, the period will be very dark for you. If you are a progressive, the period will be very bright for you.

No, if you are an American, this period will be very dark for you.

[Ulysses]

Originally Posted by black mamba1

I admit I get animated in my posts b/c I have strong views. However, my posts pale in comparison to the venom coming from the right against Obama and his supporters, so I will never apologize for my posts.

I'll have to disagree. The venom you spew is just as bad.

[OzeViper]

Originally Posted by black mamba1

I admit I get animated in my posts b/c I have strong views. However, my posts pale in comparison to the venom coming from the right against Obama and his supporters, so I will never apologize for my posts.

Governor Sanford had the nerve to rely on his Christian principals when trying to explain his self-serving behavior, his lying, and his adultery. And many on the "Christian" right are duplicitious, in that they rely on Christian principles when it suits them, and abandon them when they dont.

last time I checked, nearly every politician in the country is a Christian. and last time I checked, nearly every one of them is a lieing cheating piece of ****.

Being a Christian doesn't make them a lieing cheating piece of ****, being a politician does

[black mamba1]

Originally Posted by EllowViper

Let me know when all applications for this and for that simply say Yes or No to qualification X, Y, and Z. No name, sex, age, race, school name/association, etcetera required on the application. Once you get past ALL the irrelevant data that is used as explicit and implicit means to determine a hiring – promotion solution, then we can talk. The most FRUSTRATING Master's class I took was EMPLOYMENT LAW. I can't even attempt to discuss case law regarding EEO, Affirmative action, Workplace right to privacy, sexual harassment, Employment at will, Illegal search/seizure, “disparity”, and on and on. It’s all cut from the same thread as this POS case. I don’t know how anyone would want to be a business owner with more than the magic number of 38 employees.

Very good post. All I have to say is blacks and women and other minorities didnt wake up one day and say...

"HEY!! We have a really good idea!! Why dont we sit at the back of the bus and let the "superior folk" sit at the front of the bus! Why dont we earn less pay for equal work! Why dont we be forced to receive poorer education than the superior folk! Why dont we get racially profiled and pulled over for no reason!! These are some really good ideas! What are we waiting for?? Lets implement these policies right now!!"

Nope...didnt happen that way. All the legislation and legalese was put in place to make the "superior folk" understand that they are not superior and other folk are not inferior. So, if you want to pin point those who made up this mess in the first place...some of you must look in the mirror.

[eucharistos]

Originally Posted by black mamba1

I will never apologize for my posts.

not asking for 1 - & not saying you are saying i am asking for 1

Originally Posted by black mamba1

Governor Sanford had the nerve to rely on his Christian principals when trying to explain his self-serving behavior, his lying, and his adultery. And many on the "Christian" right are duplicitious, in that they rely on Christian principles when it suits them, and abandon them when they dont.

thanks for the clarification of your usage

Originally Posted by black mamba1

Strong white men are considered...well...strong. Strong black men are considered...arrogant. At least by those who usually do not feel too good about themselves it seems to be.

not why i called him arrogant, color (bho's half black heritage) irrelevant to me. his thinking and policies lead me to the arrogant conclusion.

i was on the fence for awhile as to whether he is....

i guess having a "black" potus, still the most powerful office in the entire world, is not enough, not until they reverse the haves and the have nots......notice they do not get rid of the distinction, they just redistribute.

greedy, loser, thieving hypocrites

[fdjake]

We HAD a moron as a President...FOR EIGHT YEARS!!!

Maybe it's just the SHOCK of seeing a new President that can actually put together a sentence that makes sense. People have to EASE into this.
We got used to......

"Too many OB/GYN's can't practice their love with woman around the country."

HEY.....I can see a new CAREER for SANFORD......

DR. Sanford OB/GYN!!!!!

[PAvenomRT/10]

Although I agree with Blackmamba1 about governor Sanford, what does any of this have to do with Vipers if I may ask?
PAvenomRT/10