What the Corvette folks can't stand about the ACR:

[Vipermann]

The 2008 SRT-10 Viper is faster than the 2008 Z06. That's an established fact -- across the automotive media. Maybe not by much, but it is faster. And importantly, these are the cars that most of us will ever drive on the street, and the Viper wins.

The Chevy folks where counting on reversing that with an apples-to-oranges comparison of a coming 2009 ZR1 to the SRT-10 Viper. But the 2008 SRT-10 is a performance car for the street. The ZR1 will be more expensive, and don't kid yourself, far less durable and practical for the street. Apples vs. Oranges. (And don't rely on the Z06 price/value nonsense -- the Z06 just took a big price hike, and is not much more of a bargain than the Viper -- and the Viper comes in a convertible too!)

So then Dodge gives us the 2008 ACR (and the 2009 ZR1 isn't even here yet). The 2008 ACR, purpose-built for the TRACK -- ready to take on the $100,000 ZR1 (and other similar ultra-high-performance track-day cars such as the $260,000 Ferrari 430 Scuderia and the $190,000 Porsche GT2), also built for the TRACK.

And as far as which car eventually ends up being faster on the track, so what. Really. Even if the 2009 ZR1 runs a second quicker than the 2008 ACR, that would be a comparison of too very rare, expensive, and not-practical-for-daily-street-use, purpose-built track cars. Add the Mopar 'race' mods, and the ACR then beats the ZR1. So then a ZR1 adds some other mods and can beat the ACR. An ACR adds a blower package, etc. and it goes on ... None of that changes the fact the that 2008 SRT-10 Viper beats the 2008 Corvette Z06. For the cars that all of us buy for the street, the Viper is faster ... And my money still thinks the ACR may take the ZR1 on the track too, we'll just have to wait and see.

[Andrew/USPWR]

Dodge could end it once and for all, by offering a Twin Turbo option from, dare I say, Hennessy. Charge an extra $100.000 and just end it. The Bugatti killer for $185,000 from Dodge.

[dun4791]

Originally Posted by Vipermann

The 2008 SRT-10 Viper is faster than the 2008 Z06. That's an established fact -- across the automotive media. Maybe not by much, but it is faster. And importantly, these are the cars that most of us will ever drive on the street, and the Viper wins.

The Chevy folks where counting on reversing that with an apples-to-oranges comparison of a coming 2009 ZR1 to the SRT-10 Viper. But the 2008 SRT-10 is a performance car for the street. The ZR1 will be more expensive, and don't kid yourself, far less durable and practical for the street. Apples vs. Oranges. (And don't relay on the Z06 price/value nonsense -- the Z06 just took a big price hike, and is not much more of a bargain than the Viper -- and the Viper comes in a convertible too!)

So then Dodge gives us the 2008 ACR (and the 2009 ZR1 isn't even here yet). The 2008 ACR, purpose-built for the TRACK -- ready to take on the $100,000 ZR1 (and other similar ultra-high-performance track-day cars such as the $260,000 Ferrari 430 Scuderia and the $190,000 Porsche GT2), also built for the TRACK.

And as far as which car eventually ends up being faster on the track, so what. Really. Even if the 2009 ZR1 runs a second quicker than the 2008 ACR, that would be a comparison of too very rare, expensive, and not-practical-for-daily-street-use, purpose-built track cars. Add the Mopar 'race' mods, and the ACR then beats the ZR1. So then a ZR1 adds some other mods and can beat the ACR. An ACR adds a blower package, etc. and it goes on ... None of that changes the fact the that 2008 SRT-10 Viper beats the 2008 Corvette Z06. For the cars that all of us buy for the street, the Viper is faster ... And my money still thinks the ACR make take the ZR1 on the track too, we'll just have to wait and see.

Do you really think Z06 owners care? If so they will just buy a Viper. Buying a car really isnt all that difficult.

You think the ZL-1 is going to be less durable and practical? A factory SC/IC car? I disagree.

[FE 065]

You're in denial.

I haven't read any features about the 2008 Viper ACR that will appreciably widen the slim ~ .10 sec advantage the '08 Viper appears to have over even the current Z06 in the quarter mile-which is, more or less, where most of the general high performance motoring population looks when deciding who is top dog.

So then the new s/c ZR-1 comes along and then what?

Ka-boom !




Too little - too late...

[HI-NOS-Viper]

The Corvette will just blow another gasket when it tries to run against the big dogs like the new ACR, hennessey, Veyron, etc. They couldn't even finish the event in the R&T Shootout.

[HI-NOS-Viper]

Originally Posted by FE 065

Ka-boom !




Too little - too late...

Took the words right out of my mouth, the sound of the vette engine trying to keep up.

[Vipermann]

Originally Posted by FE 065

You're in denial.

I haven't read any features about the 2008 Viper ACR that will appreciably widen the slim ~ .10 sec advantage the '08 Viper appears to have over even the current Z06 in the quarter mile-which is, more or less, where most of the general high performance motoring population looks when deciding who is top dog.

So then the new s/c ZR-1 comes along and then what?

The Viper beats the Z06. Period. Agreed?

Now, how will the ZR1 compare to the ACR? Who knows? The ACR will probably be 1-2 tenths faster in the 1/4 mile, mostly due to better hook-up from the tires, which will make it 2-4 tenths faster than the Z06.

The Viper has always been traction-limited in the 1/4 mile ... which is exactly where I expect the limitations to be with the ZR1. 4 tenths faster than the Z06? Maybe. Maybe not. Remember, +90HP didn't get the Viper that much more. I don't think the ZR1 will be all that impressive in the 1/4 mile.

The ZR1 will NOT be as fast in the 1/4 mile as people might speculate. It will try to make its claim on the road course. ... But that's exactly where the ACR's 1.5 Gs will come into play ... 600HP and 1.5Gs with 1000lbs. of downforce? Don't be foolish enough to count the ACR out.

Dodge did good. Real good.

(And regardless, the Viper still beats the Z06, which is going to represent 90% of these cars that you'll ever see on the street.)

[Vipermann]

Originally Posted by dun4791

You think the ZL-1 is going to be less durable and practical? A factory SC/IC car? I disagree.

The Z06s already have a 'fragile' reputation. Now there gonna put 650HP through that drivetrain.

The Viper, on the otherhand, has proven to be robust, and Dodge just beefed it up. It will be interesting to see if ZR1s run against ACRs in any organized racing series ... if so, let's see at the end of the year how such cars hold up, and which experiences the most mechanical failure for their respective racing teams

Prediction:

Among true track racers, the Viper ACR will OUTSELL the Corvette ZR1 (as they will likely have a comparable price).

Among street-driver, novices, the ZR1 will probably outsell the ACR.

I can live with that.

[AviP]

I'm hoping that the Z06 Blue Devil Shmevil comes up with the 650hp just so the Viper ups the ante. Isn't competition wonderful? Go Viper!

[Andrew/USPWR]

Originally Posted by AviP

I'm hoping that the Z06 Blue Devil Shmevil comes up with the 650hp just so the Viper ups the ante. Isn't competition wonderful? Go Viper!

There’s already been 675hp murmurs from Dodge.

I think this ACR they just dropped on us proves SRT is not asleep at the wheel and there's plenty more where that came from.

[Whoaa GTS]

Originally Posted by Andrew/USPWR

Dodge could end it once and for all, by offering a Twin Turbo option from, dare I say, Hennessy. Charge an extra $100.000 and just end it. The Bugatti killer for $185,000 from Dodge.

1. You should be banned for that comment
2. Superchargers are not optimal for roadcoarses so why would they be on the vette
3. There is even a comment by Jason Heffner discussing his TT setups in saying that a NA set up car would be better than a TT viper on the coarse in many cases despite the peak power advantage(and i think TT vipers have a little more power than the new ZR1)
4. Neither car is out yet
5. Neither car is out yet and mag racing is almost as bad as bench racing which is nowhere near as bad as online racing two cars that arent out yet

[Nine Ball]

Wow, I really hope that some of you aren't as naive as you appear when it comes to GM engines.

For those that do not know me, I co-founded LS1TECH.com (look it up) and have been building/racing LSX engines since 1998. I also write for GM High Tech magazine, and am involved behind the scenes with GM performance.

I also own a Viper. It is one of several toys I own.

1. A supercharged LSX is nothing to sneeze at. In my previous C6, I had a small housing Eaton blower on a stock engine (6.0L, 11.1 CR) and it made 550 rwhp SAE at only 5.5 psi. That engine (LS2) wasn't even a boost friendly engine. 550 rwhp is approx 625 HP at the crank. The car went 11.2 @ 129 on stock run-flats. It weighed 235 lbs more than a C6 Z06. My twin-turbo 2006 GTO puts down 550 rwhp at 6psi boost, on a completely stock LS2 (6.0L) with factory exhaust.

2. The ZR-1 (speculation on) is planned to be a lower compression 6.2L LSX based engine with a great set of heads. Similar heads to the current LS7, and LS3/L92. With a properly built, forged internal engine to handle a factory supercharger, it will easily put down higher numbers than my previous car did. Figure a simply pulley swap will net even more. There will be 650+ rwhp ZR-1 Corvettes out there, with minimal mods. 650 rwhp is over 700 HP at the crank. Look how simple the '03-04 Cobras with a factory supercharger could hit 500+ rwhp. Pulley, headers, tuning. That was with a smaller engine also.

3. The Corvette is lighter than a Viper. Try 300 lbs or so. Both cars suffer from traction issues with stock tires. Most of the hardcore enthusiasts will have better tires installed anyways. Traction is a lame excuse, buy some tires.

4. Bench racing sucks. Sadly, buyers of both the ACR and the ZR-1 will probably be 90% garage queens, owned by people too scared to drive them to potential.

5. I'm putting a Paxton on my SRTC, and will enjoy kicking the crap out of the ZR-1, the ACR, and any other exotic I may come across.

[Kenneth Krieger]

I see the 1/4 mile thing crops up again.....Viper.....3:07's and 200lbs "heavier" than the ZO6 with 3:42's......let's put in 3:55's in the Viper.....it's over and wipeout.........enough said.....

[Y2K5SRT]

Now, I will not ascribe any quotes to anybody in particular but here is something I will tell you that should give you some insight: When we were filming the ACR at an undisclosed location last week we were trying to come up with a tag line to go with the car. Me, being the cautious kind of person I was, wanted to be conservative. Of course our Prez was a little more aggressive and suggested "the fastest street-legal track car ever built by an American car company." We turned to our hosts for guidance and they shook their heads in the negative and said, "No, it is the fastest street-legal track car built by ANY car company - we will put it up against anything out there on a road course." And I suspect these guys are even more conservative than I am.

Bottom line: The drag strip is great and the only thing I am personally any good at driving. But a REAL sports/exotic car is measured by the ability to get around a road course - something that tests every facet of the design - brakes, chassis, engine, etc. And the Viper ACR will measure very, very well against any car in that venue - past, present, or future.

[pakisho]

This car hasnt even hit the dealership floor yet, and youre writing a treatise on why corvette people cant stand it?

You have WAY too much free time and a very vivid imagination.

[Vipermann]

Originally Posted by pakisho

This car hasnt even hit the dealership floor yet, and youre writing a treatise on why corvette people cant stand it?

You have WAY too much free time and a very vivid imagination.

Glad you found the 'time' to share your 9th post here ...

This thread is merely a response to some Corvette yahoos (trolls) that ran over here within hours of the ACR being posted and immediately started with pictures and comparisons to a future ZR1 ...

... were it not for that, I much prefer to just talk about Vipers

[Hiss]

Good info Nine Ball

Get that Paxton installed-man what a difference it makes

[doctorbob]

None of us live in an enclosed bubble and are not unaware of the competition. I like Nine Ball's objective commentary. However, the rant that I have now and I usually do not rant...is that the ACR has hit the tarmac and we have several trolls drop in our lap...err...website. I would love the moderators to ban a couple of these guys.

[FE 065]

Originally Posted by Y2K5SRT

..Bottom line: The drag strip is great and the only thing I am personally any good at driving. But a REAL sports/exotic car is measured by the ability to get around a road course - something that tests every facet of the design - brakes, chassis, engine, etc. And the Viper ACR will measure very, very well against any car in that venue - past, present, or future.

Is it?? Since when? You can hunt around for a niche for it like the proud Exige owners I've met, but all ANYONE cares about is 1/4 mile. There are too many tracks of different lengths to even begin to use track performance as a yard stick.

Oh suuure there a short straight tracks like the one by me that let owners of brand X cars brag about their lap times.. But everyone can relate to a 1/4 mile.

These local Exige owners who rant about their high-G early Sunday morning runs out by the GM Proving Grounds (who knew - or cared..?) make me LAUGH. One guy I met probably weighs as much as his car.

whoop dee frikkin doo

Anyone can build a dedicated short track car that doesn't require a lot of HP.

When did track times instead of 1/4 mile times ever generate car sales ??

Never

[Bugeater]

Originally Posted by FE 065

Is it?? Since when? You can hunt around for a niche for it like the proud Exige owners I've met, but all ANYONE cares about is 1/4 mile. There are too many tracks of different lengths to even begin to use track performance as a yard stick.

Oh suuure there a short straight tracks like the one by me that let owners of brand X cars brag about their lap times.. But everyone can relate to a 1/4 mile.

These local Exige owners who rant about their high-G early Sunday morning runs out by the GM Proving Grounds (who knew - or cared..?) make me LAUGH. One guy I met probably weighs as much as his car.

whoop dee frikkin doo

Anyone can build a dedicated short track car that doesn't require a lot of HP.

When did track times instead of 1/4 mile times ever generate car sales ??

Never

Ever hear of the Nurburgring? It sells cars. At least to the consumer that is interested in complete performance.

[Viper X]

FE 065,

I have to agree with Bugeater. I don't know your area well, but I can tell you that many cars are sold here in So Cal based upon track performance. We likely have more Vipers and other high performance cars registered in this area than any two other large metro areas in the country.

I think the new ACR will sell very well here. Many of our club members would love to have a comp coupe, but reality, budget (and sometimes our wives) demand that we have a car that we can drive to and from the track, with a vin number and a warranty. The new ACR gives them this.

I look forward to seeing it at the track. Add headers, Hoosiers, a roll bar and a good driver, look out other street cars and track cars.

Dan

[dun4791]

Originally Posted by Nine Ball

Wow, I really hope that some of you aren't as naive as you appear when it comes to GM engines.

For those that do not know me, I co-founded LS1TECH.com (look it up) and have been building/racing LSX engines since 1998. I also write for GM High Tech magazine, and am involved behind the scenes with GM performance.

I also own a Viper. It is one of several toys I own.

1. A supercharged LSX is nothing to sneeze at. In my previous C6, I had a small housing Eaton blower on a stock engine (6.0L, 11.1 CR) and it made 550 rwhp SAE at only 5.5 psi. That engine (LS2) wasn't even a boost friendly engine. 550 rwhp is approx 625 HP at the crank. The car went 11.2 @ 129 on stock run-flats. It weighed 235 lbs more than a C6 Z06. My twin-turbo 2006 GTO puts down 550 rwhp at 6psi boost, on a completely stock LS2 (6.0L) with factory exhaust.

2. The ZR-1 (speculation on) is planned to be a lower compression 6.2L LSX based engine with a great set of heads. Similar heads to the current LS7, and LS3/L92. With a properly built, forged internal engine to handle a factory supercharger, it will easily put down higher numbers than my previous car did. Figure a simply pulley swap will net even more. There will be 650+ rwhp ZR-1 Corvettes out there, with minimal mods. 650 rwhp is over 700 HP at the crank. Look how simple the '03-04 Cobras with a factory supercharger could hit 500+ rwhp. Pulley, headers, tuning. That was with a smaller engine also.

3. The Corvette is lighter than a Viper. Try 300 lbs or so. Both cars suffer from traction issues with stock tires. Most of the hardcore enthusiasts will have better tires installed anyways. Traction is a lame excuse, buy some tires.

4. Bench racing sucks. Sadly, buyers of both the ACR and the ZR-1 will probably be 90% garage queens, owned by people too scared to drive them to potential.

5. I'm putting a Paxton on my SRTC, and will enjoy kicking the crap out of the ZR-1, the ACR, and any other exotic I may come across.

Agreed, even though opinions not biased towards a Viper arent appreciated much here.

[Rockafella]

Originally Posted by Bugeater

Ever hear of the Nurburgring? It sells cars. At least to the consumer that is interested in complete performance.

Gotta agree. Can't wait for the new numbers to start popping up

[RTTTTed]

HMMM, and I thought the vette only beat the less hp Viper because SRT kept the run flats on the car? Now the Viper's coming out with PS2's it shouldn't even need that extra hp, should it? I tried the run flats - what a joke. couldn't even hook my 600rwhp Viper. Now I've got 720rwhp and with PS1's I've got twice the traction! Sometimes it even hooks up under 60mph.

Anyway, when they supercharge the vettes it would only be fair to buy a Viper and spend $7,000 of the money saved and put a supercharger on it as well. Fair is fair. Mine's supercharged, and I would expect a comparable vette to have a supercharger before I beat him, lol. Are they supercharging the baby vettes too - or just making them look like they're supercharged?

Somebody said something about Hennessey Vipers adding a $100,000 for a TT? He was selling TT cars with warranty new for $235,000 last year. I jsut don't understand why a Veyron is in the top ten with only 1001rwhp and Hennessey's Viper isn't. Last year there was an English coupe that was in the top ten world fastest cars and it came with a Viper V10 Twin Turbo engine and driveline. But no Lingengfelter or Hennessey cars? Damn, I guess the magazines just don't know (or care)about it all. Just the stuff they want to say.

I use my Stealth TT for racing Z06's. Bought bigger turbos because I didn't have much luck beating the last one though. Had to use the Viper to kick his ass. He also informed me that his Z06 beat stock Gen 2 Vipers. So??????

Ted

[Rockafella]

Originally Posted by RTTTTed

I jsut don't understand why a Veyron is in the top ten with only 1001rwhp and Hennessey's Viper isn't. Last year there was an English coupe that was in the top ten world fastest cars and it came with a Viper V10 Twin Turbo engine and driveline. But no Lingengfelter or Hennessey cars? Damn, I guess the magazines just don't know (or care)about it all. Just the stuff they want to say.

Because magazines have to pay their employees as well. If you paid them enough money, they'd showcase your company's car and if you pay them "enough" money; They'll probably tell the world that even though it's not quite as fast, it's still a better buy than a viper It's all about the dough.

Next time you read a comparison article, I'd check the full-page advertisements to the front and rear of it as well...

[Nine Ball]

Rockafella, how DARE you spill the deep dark secret of print media????

Now, with all of the recent Viper hysteria in the magazines, I wonder how much Dodge ponied up?

[RX VIPER]

Originally Posted by Nine Ball

Rockafella, how DARE you spill the deep dark secret of print media????

Now, with all of the recent Viper hysteria in the magazines, I wonder how much Dodge ponied up?

Yes the hysteria that mostly read: Viper wins in all performance categories. However, the Vette has cup holders and more trunk space. Winner Vette. That was pretty much verbatim.

BTW- thanks for the insight 9B. Very informative.

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Originally Posted by FE 065

When did track times instead of 1/4 mile times ever generate car sales ??

Somebody better let Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo and BMW know. Their sales would probably go through the roof if they could be a Z06 in the 1/4.

Or it might not mean a damn thing to their buyers.

I'm betting on the latter.

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Originally Posted by FE 065

the quarter mile-which is, more or less, where most of the Bud drinking YeeHaw teenyboppin' dropout population looks when deciding who is top dog.

Fixed it for ya.

[Whoaa GTS]

People who don't track cars and aren't car people base everything off of 0-60 and or 1/4 mile becuase thats what they hear in the movies and magazines talk about. Neither car is designed for quarter mile, thats what mustangs are for!! And quoted quarter mile times from a magazine are a total joke. Recently read the latest car and driver with the comparison between the 08 and the Lingenfelter. YEah the magazine did the quarter with the 08 in 12.1. Any owners with less than 600 hp stock cars run faster than that???Probably hundreds and that's with 90-150 less horsepower.