A Note on Belanger Headers & 2008 Vipers

[Y2K5SRT]

Originally Posted by Shelby3

It appears that all of the consternation would have been avoided if VCA posting policy #9 had been followed in the initial post.

And it was, thank you very much. When your biggest sponsor (you know, the one that actually made the VCA and even the car itself possible) respectfully asks you to post a "correction" on their behalf, you do it. And knowing the rules as well as anybody on these forums, I asked for - and received - the documentation to back it up before posting.

It was a simple thing - at least for a while.

[patgilm]

Originally Posted by Shelby3

It appears that all of the consternation would have been avoided if VCA posting policy #9 had been followed in the initial post.

I don't see how the first post could be considered a negative statement about Belanger. It seems its more of a warranty clarification.

[Malu59RT]

Regarding the CEL, this is something that is advertised for the Belanger's since it's "the only set of headers that doesn't throw a CEL". If it's advertised as such, then Lou needs to stand behind it (meaning he pays for diagnostic time at a dealership if the CEL comes back to the headers).

I've modded 3 cars and 1 motorcycle and spent possibly more than the value of the car in mods for each, but there is one thing I have learned from it. Once you change something on the car, you can't expect the manufacturer of the car to be responsible if it causes a problem with the car. This is why my Viper will remain stock.

Lou shouldn't need to advertise the CEL issue at all, and then he won't have to worry about customers complaining about a CEL that is traced back to his headers. I know if I add something to my car, it has the possibility of causing problems, since it was not included on the car from the factory.

All Lou needs to cover are his headers (rusting, cracking, etc.) and let his workmanship (and dyno results) speak for itself.

Jason

[doctorbob]

Damn, Chris....I hope they do not shoot you and I hope I do not get shot either (inside joke). I only posted on this thread to get clarification on what the issue is and obviously it is the "factory endorsement" implied by the Belanger ad. We all know that modifying your car can void the warranty from the factory. In fact, my first mods are going to be the same as yours with the black car and maybe throw in some six points as well. Over and out. Bob

[JonB - PartsRack]

1) The polite, gentlemanly, politically correct thing that SHOULD have been done was for VCA to CALL BELANGER FIRST. This would have been 'more consistant' with VCA policy. Chris: To be accurate, you only spoke with Lou AFTER this thread had expanded to 2+ pages. As of 6pm Pacific 5/29, he had NOT heard from you, but had left a message for YOU to call HIM hours earlier. Anyone at VCA (Prez probably has Factory Belangers on his VCC, Treas Chris has Belangers...) could have called Lou Man-To-Man.

There is NO EXCUSE, no matter how many words you write.

2) Any of several KEY players at SRT /Chrysler could have asked Lou directly, (off the record of course, per Chrysler Lawyer likley advice ) and Lou's vague statement would likley have been modified, or at least better understood by those concerned.

3) My post was entirely reviewed and heartily approved for accuracy and content by Lou Belanger. I afforded him the COURTESY ........ the VCA should have done the same.

The motive of trying to help our friends at Chrysler was good, but posting this as a "top importance" semi-permanent, Forum STICKY note, naming a manufacturer, potentially damages them. Hiding behind 'anonymous sources' and sidestepping written VCA policy in this case was NOT the finest VCA hour.

[Shelby3]

Originally Posted by Y2K5SRT

And it was, thank you very much. When your biggest sponsor (you know, the one that actually made the VCA and even the car itself possible) respectfully asks you to post a "correction" on their behalf, you do it. And knowing the rules as well as anybody on these forums, I asked for - and received - the documentation to back it up before posting.

It was a simple thing - at least for a while.

You didn't include the source until later as has been noted.

[Bobpantax]

Hi Jon and Chris. May I suggest you iron out your differences in a telephone call. The situation has been clarified regarding Lou and his product. The rest is between the two of you and none of our business.

Best,

Bob

[Y2K5SRT]

Originally Posted by Bobpantax

Hi Jon and Chris. May I suggest you iron out your differences in a telephone call. The situation has been clarified regarding Lou and his product. The rest is between the two of you and none of our business.

Best,

Bob

No worries Bob, we want to make sure we do what is best for the club and arguing with a vendor on a public forum isn't. Hopefully my prior post provided better clarification for everybody. Thanks for your always wise counsel.

Chris

[JonB - PartsRack]

And the real closer is:

I spoke w/ Lou moments ago, and Belanger will be promptly modifying his flyer to clarify the factory testing and No CEL issues. Lou intends to be sure Chryslers legal staff sees the new flyer ASAP, and is satisfied with the changes.

WHICH COULD HAVE ALL BEEN ACCOMPLISHED WITH 1 PHONE CALL and NOT this STICKY THREAD THAT CHRYSLER REQUESTED...

[Bobpantax]

Hi Jon a/k/a Monday Grump. Just a note. This thread, as of this post, had received 1054 views. It seems to me that Lou got a nice peice of free advertising out of this thread and, after all is said and done, he may laugh all the way to the bank about it. Have a good one!

Bob

[RTTTTed]

I don't feel this post reflects negatively on Belanger products. I have a set in my garage.

As far as warranties go, Daimler Chrsyler cancelled mine when I crossed the border into Canada to "discourage cross-border shopping". No refund. I would have expected that the warranty would have only covered minor issues since my car is highly modified. However, I had to fix the broken speaker wire myself and don't plan to buy a new speedometer to fix the 10% difference between the speed and the trip meters. That's what would have been covered by warranty?

I wouldn't have bought a Viper because of this warranty cancellation policy, except these Vipers are made so much better than the vettes I expect to have no further warranty issues with this car. It does upset me that Chrysler did cancel my warranty, but ... better a no warranty well built car than a GM that NEEDS warranty work?

For clarification I'll explain that the GM breakage and warranty service info I got was from reported vette owners.

Ted

[CitySnake]

Originally Posted by Y2K5SRT

Fuzzy dice come later and I don't care if they throw a "check windshield" light or not.

Ya see, I have to decide whether the dice comes before or after the mini disco ball. Too many years of Tony Manero I guess.

[Fast1]

I am planning on installing the Belanger headers as soon as I hit the 1000 mile mark. I know they were on the Viper vs. Viper car and that is good enough for me. However, IF I do break something in what I consider should be a bullet proof motor, I will consider it to be Dodge's fault for not building the flagship car that is advertised to be a race car for the street (ACR, COMP COUPE) (STREET and RACING TECHNOLOGY) strong enough to handle it. This thread should be turned around as FALSE ADVERTISEMENT on Dodge's part. The Dodge Viper has a racing heritage and it should be engineered to keep it that way. The SRT engineers are car guys that like to modify their cars so why did they not see that Viper owners would more than likely be modifying this car. For a couple of hundred dollars extra I would rather have a forged piston option than a dumbas* center console piece of plastic with a cheap looking pattern design on it.

DODGE KNOWS WE RACE MODIFY OUR CARS AND THEY ADVERTISE IT THAT WAY, IF THEY BUILT THE CAR ON THE RAGGED EDGE TO SAVE MONEY IT IS THEIR FAULT!!!

LOU YOU ARE TOPS IN MY BOOK AND WE WILL FIGHT ALONG WITH YOU JUST LIKE WE SAVED TATOR"S DODGE!!!!!!!!!

[Stealth]

Originally Posted by Fast1

I am planning on installing the Belanger headers as soon as I hit the 1000 mile mark. I know they were on the Viper vs. Viper car and that is good enough for me. However, IF I do break something in what I consider should be a bullet proof motor, I will consider it to be Dodge's fault for not building the flagship car that is advertised to be a race car for the street (ACR, COMP COUPE) (STREET and RACING TECHNOLOGY) strong enough to handle it. This thread should be turned around as FALSE ADVERTISEMENT on Dodge's part. The Dodge Viper has a racing heritage and it should be engineered to keep it that way. The SRT engineers are car guys that like to modify their cars so why did they not see that Viper owners would more than likely be modifying this car. For a couple of hundred dollars extra I would rather have a forged piston option than a dumbas* center console piece of plastic with a cheap looking pattern design on it.

DODGE KNOWS WE RACE MODIFY OUR CARS AND THEY ADVERTISE IT THAT WAY, IF THEY BUILT THE CAR ON THE RAGGED EDGE TO SAVE MONEY IT IS THEIR FAULT!!!

Well, I am a lawyer and unfortunately you are wrong about literally everything you said--other than the fact that probably all of us would gladly pay a little extra for forged pistons, etc. to make our motors stronger.

It is unrealistic for manufacturers to design-in tolerances and cover under warranties modifications they did not create. There is a Federal Warranty Act (Magnusson-Moss, etc. or something like that) which covers this area. Essentially, if the modification caused the failure/problem, then it is not covered by the warranty and the mfg. can deny coverage. Fair enough.

Given the current economic state, more and more mfgs. are putting a new spin on warranty matters. Instead of handling matters case-by-case giving dealers great discretion, the mfgs. are now beginning to issue bulletins stating that if certain modifications are made such as computer tuning, then the entire warranty is void. Techically, this is a violation of Federal Law, but effectively, it will be up to the consumer to bear the cost of overturning this decision.

So, while I agree with you that most of us do like to mod to some degree, we must be prepare to pay if there is a failure. Like most here, it seems to me that headers do not constitute a major mod and should be OK in terms of warranty. If you add computer tuning it certainly pushes matters a bit more.

Fortunately, Dodge gave us a 600hp motor right out of the box so we have great power already.

[Fast1]

legal speak blah, blah, blah.......

You lawyers are the problem with America right now !!!!!!
Everyone tries to cover their ass with so much insurance and liability bull*** that very few actually have enough left financially or even care enough to offer a quality product. Dodge knows the weaknesses in all their cars and what the engineers have skimped on and what the penny pinchers have cut. The reality is if they spent less time and money covering their ass on known flaws, they could have done the R&D to correct it.

AS A LAWYER, SHOULDN'T YOU BE DRIVING A CORVETTE ANYWAY!!!!!!

[Bobpantax]

You lawyers are the problem with America right now !!!!!!

Do you include in the term "you lawyers" those who prosecute criminals, defend the indigent, protect your constitutional rights, including your First Amendment Right to express yourself on this website, and defend people from improper government action? But for lawyers, there would have been no Declaration of Independence, no Constitution, and no right to try to obtain justice through a civilized process. The problem with America right now is not lawyers. The principal problem is the cancerous spread of the victim culture wherein it is OK to be ignorant and not responsible for one's own actions and rely on media bites for knowledge instead of doing the disciplined study necessary to understand a particular subject. Let me suggest to you, that you, like many others before you, would immediately run to a lawyer if your freedom or your livelihood were threatened. GFY

[RTTTTed]

So you're saying all lawyers are bad or just Stealth in particular?

I've been both saved and screwed by lawyers. I support honest lawyers.

Ted

[RTTTTed]

Originally Posted by Bobpantax

You lawyers are the problem with America right now !!!!!!

Do you include in the term "you lawyers" those who prosecute criminals, defend the indigent, protect your constitutional rights, including your First Amendment Right to express yourself on this website, and defend people from improper government action? But for lawyers, there would have been no Declaration of Independence, no Constitution, and no right to try to obtain justice through a civilized process. The problem with America right now is not lawyers. The principal problem is the cancerous spread of the victim culture wherein it is OK to be ignorant and not responsible for one's own actions and rely on media bites for knowledge instead of doing the disciplined study necessary to understand a particular subject. Let me suggest to you, that you, like many others before you, would immediately run to a lawyer if your freedom or your livelihood were threatened.

Well said.

[Bobpantax]

RTTTTed you have a PM.

[SNKEBIT]

Wow!!! Some of you supposedly "smart" people amaze me. If you alter, in any way, a factory car from stock, WARRANTY IS NULL AND VOID. PERIOD. Any kind of "hop-up" item falls into this catagory. One of the previous posters mentioned taking responsibility for 'your-own-actions' is exactly what the owner is doing modifying the car from factory specs. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!

[Nsane1]

Wow, this thread has gotten ridiculous. Issue resolved, please close/delete. I won't be back in this one...

[Fast1]

You guys aren't getting the point. The point is, at least for the '08 crowd, that our motors were actually skimped on a bit and they cannot be modded even the slightest bit without changing the pistons. What I am saying is that everyone knows that you void a warranty to a certain extent whenever you mod your car, but usually that has been with major modification. I know back in the day with the old 5.0 mustangs, you could add headers, intake, etc. and still be covered under warranty, at least I was. They were able to look at the problem and diagnose whether the modifications to the car caused the problem or not. Ford built those cars keeping in mind the end user and the fact that the aftermarket was a great place to earn street credit and sell more vehicles. Am I saying that Dodge should keep my warranty after a supercharger, turbos, nitrous, etc., NO....HELL NO... but mods such as exhaust, cold, air intake, wheels and tires, etc. should be in a category of high tolerance because it should be easy to see whether or not they caused the problem. I am somewhat upset to learn that the '08 MAY have been designed on the ragged edge, so close as to not even allow the 50-75 horse upgrade that exhaust and headers would give you. At that point I could have kept my '06 and gotten more out of a superchargers I believe those paxton guys are keeping their stock pistons. The 8.4L motor is a great motor, but it was not designed (if these story from SRT is true) for the end user that will more than likely take it to the street/track with at least minor modifacations. Its like Microsoft selling a supercomputer for tech geeks that cannot be altered. It would be a stupid move on their part. The worst thing is that none of this was disclosed to us until after we had purchased the new cars. There has never been any products in the category of mild modifications that were banned straight forward for the Viper because they may cause internal problems with the motor. I am just saying that if my 90K car that was built for the track, especially those ACR guys, cannot handle even a 50-75 horse upgrade, then it has a major design flaw from the factory and was advertised under false pretenses. I do not care about the LEGAL BS. Thinking of the consumer buying this car and the flagship heritage that it has for racing, performance, and ability to modify with aftermarket parts, Dodge/Chrysler messed up. Yes the car would be great for the average buyer by itself, but we (Viper guys) are not the average buyer. The product is flawed for ME!!!!!

[Bobpantax]

I think that you missed the point of what happened in this thread. No one said that Lou's headers will actually hurt anything. What Chrysler said was that they did not test them and will not warrant them. So what? They have used them and this fact is widely known. The VVT, cam within a cam tech requires very complex programming. Because it is so complex, it is less flexible than the gen III programming. As for the pistons, 600 HP was deemed to be enough. As for keeping your '06, there were a number of threads and posts discussing this alternative in detail. I chose to keep my supercharged '06 coupe for just that reason. I ended up installing '08 tires, differential, yolk, driveshaft and tranny to produce what I believe is the best of both cars. If you want more details on this, I posted the Certificate from Woodhouse showing the mods and that it is the first Woodhouse Performance Edition SRTC. The bottom line. SRT put out a fantastic car for '08 in a very tough environment. No other car company has such a close relationship between its fanatics and the development team. You should be grateful as opposed to disappointed.

[Fast1]

Bottom line, BOB, is that the '08 ( by rumor ) does not offer the same potential for performance that the '06 did. IT IS A DESIGN FLAW. The electronics can be figured out. When OBD first came out, shoot fuel injection and computer control for that matter, everyone thought it was the end of the world for modifications, but some one always cracks the computer code. The piston problem is a real physical problem. You just stated that you didn't upgrade to an '08 for that reason alone and you still think it was not a design flaw? You are one of the lucky few that was told before your purchase. I ordered my car as soon as I could after talking with the SRT crew at the Viper vs. Viper showdown and they were saying that they had had the new motor to well over the 600 hp mark and nothing was ever said about pistons. Is the piston thing real or just someone trying to cover their ass. This is the real issue.......I am sorry......MY real issue. I know I would be a lot more upset if I had ordered an ACR to go racing at the track with the promises of a Mopar aftermarket 675hp kit and then this statement. C'mon legal BS aside the situation has a darkside to it BOB. If you as a car guy were designing this motor for you as a Viper guy wouldn't you have used pistons that had a bit more freedom in the power department?

[DC Performance]

The 08 Venom engine controller is extremely sensitive, just testing a vehicle
on our dyno without the air filter put the car in limp-in and turned on the check engine light.

In regards to the Belanger headers on 08's. I have yet to have an CEL issue. With the cats and 02's in the right place, they work great. These headers will not pass a visual inspection in California (sold as off road use, competition only) but will pass tailpipe emissions.

DC and good dealers understand that Viper customers want to upgrade and personalize their cars. It is important that you understand how this affects your warranty. Technically, if the aftermarket part is not responsible for the problem it should be covered.

The new model has ample power. An air filter change and side exhaust change will give you the tone you want and a little more punch, plus it will pass California emissions. There are some other areas where your money may be well spent; Driving school, safety equipment, brake and suspension upgrades, driveline modifications to improve traction and handling, etc.

DC Performance Inc
310-841-6996

[Y2K5SRT]

Okay, this thread is being closed as the point has been made. I would also note to the last (fast) poster that there is no design flaw in the 2008 - far, far from it. Vipers have had cast pistons since 2000, including ACR's - NO exceptions. So if you are under the mistaken impression that the 2006 had forged pistons you are wrong. If you think that a manufacturer somehow "owes" it to consumers to build a street-legal engine capable of standing up to modifications that increase it's power by 10-50% you are wrong again. SRT has built what I suspect is once again a largely bulletproof engine (as has been pretty much every Viper motor since Day 1) that will undoubtedly stand up to basic mods. They just can't endorse them as the results have never been fully tested/documented.

And that, my friends, brings this particular thread to a close. Have a great day!



PS. Dan posted that last post before I closed this up. I didn't get a chance to read it or comment beforehand, but it is an EXCELLENT summary. Thanks Dan!