A Note on Belanger Headers & 2008 Vipers

[Y2K5SRT]

Quite a few 2008 Viper Owners have purchased or are considering a purchase of Belanger headers for their new Vipers. Great! However there is a special note that we have been asked to pass along: These headers have NOT been tested and/or tuned by Chrysler or SRT to be OBD II compliant. As such, there is a very real possibility of Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) illumination (check engine light) and resulting driveability issues that are NOT covered by the factory warranty.

Bottom line? The factory control module has not been calibrated for aftermarket headers, so any resulting check engine light issues are the owner's responsibility - not Chrysler's.

[Y2K5SRT]

And on a personal note, we have Belanger headers on our 2005 Viper and absolutely love them. We have never had a single issue with them and have put about 10,000 trouble-free miles on 'em with our DLM build. Lou makes great exhaust systems for the Viper, so be sure to work with your tuner for best results.

[Vipermann]

Originally Posted by Y2K5SRT

Bottom line? The factory control module has not been calibrated for aftermarket headers...

I guess maybe that's why Dodge never released those Mopar headers for the '08, as orginally described ...at least until they also offer a new ECU/program to go with it.

[rcl4668]

Originally Posted by Y2K5SRT

Quite a few 2008 Viper Owners have purchased or are considering a purchase of Belanger headers for their new Vipers. Great! However there is a special note that we have been asked to pass along: These headers have NOT been tested and/or tuned by Chrysler or SRT to be OBD II compliant. As such, there is a very real possibility of Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) illumination (check engine light) and resulting driveability issues that are NOT covered by the factory warranty.

Bottom line? The factory control module has not been calibrated for aftermarket headers, so any resulting check engine light issues are the owner's responsibility - not Chrysler's.

Chris --

As someone who currently has the Belanger system installed, was it Chrysler who asked to pass this message along? Thanks.

/Rich

[Y2K5SRT]

Rich -

I am not going to comment on the source other than to say they have a vested interest in this. We had been asked to keep it confidential.

Thanks for your understanding,

Chris

PS. I assume you aren't having any issues with check engine lights?

[Bobpantax]

Relevant posts from the recent SRT Engineer chat. See below. These, taken together with the above news mean to me that the bottom line is that you spend your money and take your chances. If something goes wrong, it has been made clear that Dodge's warranty will not cover it. Is there a warranty with the headers? And, if so, what does it cover?

Originally Posted by black08
Thank you for your response. Do you feel that the addition of an aftermarket exhaust system with headers is too much stress on an already stressed engine?

The problem is we really don't know what the long term effects are since we haven't had an opportunity to do that kind of testing. It may be ok ...........

Quote:
Originally Posted by black08
Hi. Congratulations on the great 2008 model you put together and the ACR which is wiping the floor with the competition on the road courses of the One Lap of America.

Can you please tell us, once and for all, whether there will be a Mopar horsepower upgrade for the 2008 model or not. There has been much speculation that such an upgrade to the 675 hp. range is forthcoming sometime in the future. Recently, however, one source advised that this is not going to happen.

We continue to look at opportunities but at this time there are no definitive plans to release a kit.

I am seriously considering adding the Belanger exhaust system to my ACR when it arrives, however, wanted to know if something was coming from Mopar that I should wait for. Thank you.

Understand that you're looking for something to get a bit more performance however while we have some experience with the Belanger system we can't endorese it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobpantax
5. I understand that the pistons for the '08 engine were not intended for use beyond the stock application and that if someone wants to mod the engine a piston change out is adviseable. Is this true? If so do you have any specs on the preferred pistons to use?


Bob,

The 2008 engine is a highly tuned and highly stressed engine. We left few stones unturned in the development or calibration process. Achieving 600 HP required that many of the parts be stressed to their limits and the pistons are one of the most highly stressed components in the engine. If the customer modifies the engine to increase the output by any significant amount (more than just say headers, i.e. supercharger, turbo, NOS), a quality forged piston would be a good idea. We don’t currently offer a replacement piston but many of the aftermarket suppliers could probably offer a good replacement part. Follow their recommendations for fit. Also be careful to make any adjustments for balance if the weight is much different than the stock piston. Don't forget to use a good engine builder and make sure the calibration matches the modifications!

[Vipermann]

All of this is another reason why I believe 3.33 rear gears should be any '08 Viper owner's first performance mod. No ECU issues, faster in the 1/4mi. and more fun to drive in 1st and 6th gears, and easier on the life of the clutch too!!

[wallbanger]

So what exactly could go wrong?

[ViperTony]

I had a very lengthy conversation with Lou Belanger about the '08 headers/exhaust even though I didn't call him about that specific product. The man went into incredible detail about the '08 exhaust, testing and the science that went into it. I wish I had recorded that conversation so I could post it here. If anyone has any doubts about the '08 Belanger headers/exhaust I highly recommend that you call the man yourself and ask him about it. Please post the info you receive here.

[Bobpantax]

Originally Posted by wallbanger

So what exactly could go wrong?

Look at the last quote from the engineers. The Gen 1 and Gen II engines, at least through 1999, were tough as nails. With the elimination of forged pistons in 2000, the engine got a little weaker. With the use of the SRT8's cast pistons in the '08, the engine, as the engineers said, the engine is more stressed. The way I read what they are saying is that there is no envelope or little envelope to stretch with the '08 engine. Minimal remedy - change out the pistons. However, this will not solve any programming issue that might arise. And that appears to be what the recent news is about.

[wallbanger]

So it is mostly a programming issue... The engineers also said this implying the hp increase seen by adding headers should be ok for the pistons

If the customer modifies the engine to increase the output by any significant amount (more than just say headers, i.e. supercharger, turbo, NOS), a quality forged piston would be a good idea.

[wallbanger]

Also the srt8 gc guys have been modding their engines with nitrous , headers , tune, and have no issues achieving even 3 second 0-60 times... i think there are even supercharged srt8gc out there..

[Bobpantax]

Originally Posted by wallbanger

So it is mostly a programming issue... The engineers also said this implying the hp increase seen by adding headers should be ok for the pistons

If the customer modifies the engine to increase the output by any significant amount (more than just say headers, i.e. supercharger, turbo, NOS), a quality forged piston would be a good idea.

They did not use the word "should". They used the word "may". There is a big difference. I think that someone needs to answer the question regarding whether there is a warranty that comes with the headers and, if so, what does it cover.

The stock SRT8 environment is either 420 HP or 425 HP depending on the SRT8 model. Thus, it is one thing to mod a 420/425 HP engine with the SRT8 pistons. It is an entirely different matter to mod the stock 600 HP engine with the same SRT8 pistons. As the engineers carefully stated, the '08 engine is HIGHLY STRESSED. Short of hitting us over the head, they could not have been more clear.

[doctorbob]

Okay, dumb question for the day. If the Belanger headers/exhaust is potenially detrimental for the engine, why did Ralph Gilles put them on his ACR?

[Bobpantax]

Originally Posted by doctorbob

Okay, dumb question for the day. If the Belanger headers/exhaust is potenially detrimental for the engine, why did Ralph Gilles put them on his ACR?

I don't think Mr. Giles needs to be concerned about warranty issues. He also has daily access to SRT engineering input if he desires same. The engineers used the word "may" for a reason. They also used the phrase "highly stressed" for a reason. I am sure that they caused the recent programming alert to be issued for a reason. The bottom line is that unless a warranty is issued with the headers that covers any problem, any problem that arises attributable to the headers, if any, is not covered by the OEM warranty. And that has been made crystal clear. Until Chrysler issues a public statement to the contrary, this is the reality we have to deal with.

[mjorgensen]

Fact of the matter remains that Lou's headers "fit" within the "tight" tolerances of the factory PCM without throwing a code of any kind. This speaks volumes of the research that went into his design of the system. "IF" there was going to be a problem with the longevity of the engine the controller WOULD NOT allow it and throw a CEL right?

Some circles cannot by any means endorse the removal of ANY emissions device for a non off road application and that is exactly why I think they choose the wording the way they do, end of story.

IMHO of course.

Thanks all Belangers FTW!!!! off road of course.

[JonB - PartsRack]

If the VCA was spending on Chrysler's legal budget, the VCA's highly paid lawyer might have said" "DON'T MENTION ANY BRAND NAMES."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lou Belanger was a bit blindsided by this post, and Lou has a call in to our esteemed treasurer.

He relates that Dodge has bought over 140 sets of Belanger headers for everything from Comp Coupes to developmental Vipers. NO header has ever been returned / rejected by Dodge to Belanger. Dodge also bought and tested other brands. But what is on the Comp Coupe?

Mclaren performed EXTENSIVE testing for "someone" and Belanger did NOT pay for it. Who did? Arrow also did extensive testing of these headers. For who? Belanger did not pay for it. McLaren also tested other brands, Belanger was told.

But it was 2008 Belanger headers that were a PART OF DODGE'S DISPLAY at the 2007 NAIS Auto Show as seen here.

When Dodge raced the F-16, the public line was "All Stock, (WINK!)" I saw what was under the hood on that 2008 Coupe. {Belanger even attended and donated a set to Dodge's charity event there.}

It is a touch misleading to come here out of the blue and say "Hey All, not OBD-II Compliant." Weasel Words. Lou sells all these components labelled for OFF ROAD USE, the same as Mopar sells stuff.

So this question remains: ON Board Diagnostic -II systems monitor emmisions compliance. Since the Belangers seem NOT to throw any post-break-in CELs, in the vast-vast majority of 2008s, (and none of the 1996.5-2006) then WHERE IS THE NON COMPLIANCE? You dont need (illegal) simulators to trick OBD-2 ! The Belangers just WORK! Tacit Compliance.

Does it mean they will likely pass emissions testing where required? Yup. Does this make them "Federally tested " and / or certified ? Nope. Hell, half the MoPar parts are sold "off road use" only, and "no warantee of any kind." What is the difference here?

This post is also potentially damaging to Belanger's business, and the VCA being the 'mouthpiece' of this anonymous post is just, well..... ____. (I just cannot seem to find the right word.) Strange? We just LOVE our anonymity here.

Don't dare shout "FIRE" but it's OK to shout "SMOKE" ?

I guess we have the basis for an entire new SRT Chat ...

[JonB - PartsRack]

Originally Posted by mjorgensen

.........

Some circles cannot by any means endorse the removal of ANY emissions device for a non off road application and that is exactly why I think they choose the wording the way they do, end of story...

Exactly, Mark. It has always been this way with Fed Emissions. The Chrysler Lawyers will NEVER (and HAVE NEVER) let it appear that any endoresemnt or recommendation is being made of such horrendous devices that are melting glaciers worldwide...The Feds are here to help us. The lawyers are doing good work, the FINES are catastrophic.

Those same lawyers probably advised Chrysler to say NOTHING....so that is probably why it seems so ________ (weird / strange / obvious / appropriate? / inappropriate ?) that the VCA is the mouthpiece.

It is also historic. The warranty process from 4/94 til 2007 was written one way, but performed with a different, relaxed philosophy. Taken along with HUGE parts price increases, Methinks this historic and ___________ post may be a bow-shot of sorts.

Originally Posted by Y2K5SRT;2541154[COLOR=red

]........Rich - I am not going to comment on the source other than to say they have a vested interest in this. We had been asked to keep it confidential.[/color]
Thanks for your understanding, Chris............

Now THIS reply sure says a lot... Just some of those with a 'vested interest' in minimizing Belanger sales: A+A headers; C+C headers; ABC headers, HMFer headers, ERA headers, KUUK headers, etc etc etc.... {notice I did NOT mention any name brands...) Thanks for YOUR understanding....

PS: Late Edit from DORIS: VCA POSTING POLICY # 9: "Negative statements about vendors, customers, or others must be first hand, and substantiated. Furthermore, we reserve the right to hold negative posts until substantiated, and to give the parties reasonable time to work it out. "

[Bobpantax]

Mark and Jon. Thank you for your posts. I think that the utterances of the SRT engineers, including the most recent one, are meant to manage the expectations of those who mod their cars. With the intense concern over dollars at Chrysler LLC, I am not surprised at their action. I think the simple marketing solution is for Lou, if he has not already done so, to provide a limited warranty that covers any damage to the engine if it can be shown that same was directly caused by the use of the headers. If, as you and others say, they work flawlesly, the cost of providing the warranty should be little to nothing. Paxton provides a limited warranty with its supercharger - why not a header manufacturer?

[Goin 4 It]

Chris,
It's been a few years since I've posted anything on the VCA classisfied section but when I went to list one of my Vipers for sale today (you used to handle all that stuff for me) I was not prompted for my VCA membership number and it appeared I was going to incur a fee if I completed the listing and submitted it. As a dues paying Venom member I thought free listing was one of the perks. Was I wrong?
GLT

[Bobpantax]

One more observation. If the message passed on by Chris was from Mopar as opposed to the SRT Engineers, it makes even more sense for Lou to issue a limited warranty. Mopar, assuming that they ever get their act together well enough to create a workable set of headers for the '08, will never issue such a warranty. So, if Lou does, it will allow him to obtain a greater market share. JM2C's.

[wallbanger]

limited drivetrain warranty seems like a decent idea....installation would probably have to be done by a certified installer though

[JonB - PartsRack]

Originally Posted by Bobpantax

.........Mopar, assuming that they ever get their act together well enough to create a workable set of headers for the '08, will never issue such a warranty........

FYI, this is copied verbatim (in blue) from catalogue page

MoPar Performance Warranty

NO PARTS WARRANT - "AS IS"

Mopar Perfromance Parts are sold "as is" unless otherwise noted. This means that parts sold by Mopar Performance carry no warranty whatsoever. .................... The entire risk as to quality and performance of such parts is with the buyer. Should such parts prove defective following their purchase, the buyer and not the manufacturer, distributor, or retailer assumes the entire cost of all necessary servcing or repair.

[wallbanger]

Besides why would headers cause more stress on the engine?....i'm no mechanic(obviously)but all the headers are doing are allowing combusted gases to exit the chamber more efficiently thereby allowing the piston head to rise up easier and therefor putting less tension on the piston and less passive resistance on the driveshaft...right? The piston goes thru 2 phases.. the first phase is when the piston goes down and the gas/air mixture is introduced , then the piston goes up , compresses the gases and they are ignited...this is the phase that causes stress on the piston and the headers have no effect on this phase whatsoever... is my logic right?

Seems to me the headers are causing the pistons to work less

o well i've said enough... i'm putting my faith in belanger/jorgensen/partsrack

[JonB - PartsRack]

Originally Posted by wallbanger

Besides why would headers cause more stress on the engine?..... is my logic right?

Seems to me the headers are causing the pistons to work less

o well i've said enough... i'm putting my faith in belanger/jorgensen/partsrack

Thanks Wall....but the SRT Engineers know this Answer (but apparently not from any testing!) Performance Headers create extra TORQUE on the crank and rods etc.

[rcl4668]

Originally Posted by Y2K5SRT

Rich -

I am not going to comment on the source other than to say they have a vested interest in this. We had been asked to keep it confidential.

Thanks for your understanding,

Chris

PS. I assume you aren't having any issues with check engine lights?

Chris --

I completely respect your need to protect sources. My questions was only trying to clarify whether this message was prompted by a specific problem encountered by the source of the message or whether the message was just a generic disclaimer regarding the use of aftermarket parts on the 2008. I fully understand from the documentation that came with my Belanger system that it is designed as "Off Road Use Only" and has not been federally certified. My concern lies with whether the source of the message has encountered specific programming or driveability issues that I as a consumer should be made aware of.

Thanks for any help you can provide clarifying this.

/Rich

[Bobpantax]

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

FYI, this is copied verbatim (in blue) from catalogue page

MoPar Performance Warranty

NO PARTS WARRANT - "AS IS"

Mopar Perfromance Parts are sold "as is" unless otherwise noted. This means that parts sold by Mopar Performance carry no warranty whatsoever. .................... The entire risk as to quality and performance of such parts is with the buyer. Should such parts prove defective following their purchase, the buyer and not the manufacturer, distributor, or retailer assumes the entire cost of all necessary servcing or repair.

Thanks Jon. I knew the above. That is why it makes sense for Lou to provide a limited warranty like Paxton. Mopar will never match it and Lou will have the market to himself until someone else comes out with an equal or better product that includes a limited warranty. It's called capitalism at work. The flexible and creative survive. The regimented and inflexible perish.

Best,

Bob

[Y2K5SRT]

I swear Jon, you will be the death of me and you aren't helping anybody in this case. But allow me to expand, as you did below:

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

If the VCA was spending on Chrysler's legal budget, the VCA's highly paid lawyer might have said" "DON'T MENTION ANY BRAND NAMES."

Careful what you wish for: It was CHRYSLER that asked this to be posted and CHRYSLER that said to mention Belanger specifically. Why? See for yourself:



I sure am glad that the people that work so hard on this site gave us smilies for every occasion:

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

Lou Belanger was a bit blindsided by this post, and Lou has a call in to our esteemed treasurer.

And I spoke with Lou personally and at length earlier this evening. What you fail to realize is that I think the absolute world of Lou and his products. Or did you miss the second post in this thread?

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

He relates that Dodge has bought over 140 sets of Belanger headers for everything from Comp Coupes to developmental Vipers. NO header has ever been returned / rejected by Dodge to Belanger. Dodge also bought and tested other brands. But what is on the Comp Coupe?

Mclaren performed EXTENSIVE testing for "someone" and Belanger did NOT pay for it. Who did? Arrow also did extensive testing of these headers. For who? Belanger did not pay for it. McLaren also tested other brands, Belanger was told.

But it was 2008 Belanger headers that were a PART OF DODGE'S DISPLAY at the 2007 NAIS Auto Show as seen here.

When Dodge raced the F-16, the public line was "All Stock, (WINK!)" I saw what was under the hood on that 2008 Coupe. {Belanger even attended and donated a set to Dodge's charity event there.}

Can't and won't disagree with a single thing here. Indeed, I was thrilled to see Lou's headers on display at NAIAS - and figured it was an "endorsement by default". But lawyer I ain't. The ones that are say that it was not factory tested and tuned - at least by their factory.

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

It is a touch misleading to come here out of the blue and say "Hey All, not OBD-II Compliant." Weasel Words. Lou sells all these components labelled for OFF ROAD USE, the same as Mopar sells stuff.

The "weasel" thing is such a nice touch, especially when you look at the ad above. I didn't write the ad, didn't object to it, but did post what we were asked to post. How do you cook the messenger after you shoot them?

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

So this question remains: ON Board Diagnostic -II systems monitor emmisions compliance. Since the Belangers seem NOT to throw any post-break-in CELs, in the vast-vast majority of 2008s, (and none of the 1996.5-2006) then WHERE IS THE NON COMPLIANCE? You dont need (illegal) simulators to trick OBD-2 ! The Belangers just WORK! Tacit Compliance.

I'll do you one better: In ALL of the 2008 Belanger systems installed to date, only ONE is known to have a recurring issue with a check engine light (CEL). But apparently that was enough to make some folks nervous in Auburn Hills. Especially when the ad refers to "factory tested and tuned to be OBD 2 compliant". Lou clarified that and pointed out he is referring to HIS factory and not Chrysler, which we are passing back to them. I will leave the OBD 2 language to the concerned parties.

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

Does it mean they will likely pass emissions testing where required? Yup. Does this make them "Federally tested " and / or certified ? Nope. Hell, half the MoPar parts are sold "off road use" only, and "no warantee of any kind." What is the difference here?

Feel free to ask the lawyers.

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

This post is also potentially damaging to Belanger's business, and the VCA being the 'mouthpiece' of this anonymous post is just, well..... ____. (I just cannot seem to find the right word.) Strange? We just LOVE our anonymity here.

Now you know the source, so drop the rhetoric if you don't mind.

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

Don't dare shout "FIRE" but it's OK to shout "SMOKE" ? I guess we have the basis for an entire new SRT Chat ...

$10.00 says it will be "no comment", as it probably should be - leave it to the lawyers that are concerned with the language.

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

The Chrysler Lawyers will NEVER (and HAVE NEVER) let it appear that any endoresemnt or recommendation is being made of such horrendous devices that are melting glaciers worldwide...The Feds are here to help us. The lawyers are doing good work, the FINES are catastrophic.

I suspect this is when the million-candlepower light bulb went off over a few heads.

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

Those same lawyers probably advised Chrysler to say NOTHING....so that is probably why it seems so obvious & appropriate that the VCA is the mouthpiece.

Clarified that for you and glad we agree on it.

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

It is also historic. The warranty process from 4/94 til 2007 was written one way, but performed with a different, relaxed philosophy. Taken along with HUGE parts price increases, Methinks this historic and ___________ post may be a bow-shot of sorts.

I'm not going to try and interpret this, but it sure doesn't sound promising.

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

Now THIS reply sure says a lot... Just some of those with a 'vested interest' in minimizing Belanger sales: A+A headers; C+C headers; ABC headers, HMFer headers, ERA headers, KUUK headers, etc etc etc.... {notice I did NOT mention any name brands...) Thanks for YOUR understanding....

Wow, so you honestly think that the VCA or any of its officers would knowingly name a very respected vendor on a questionable issue simply in order to promote the interests of another vendor? Maybe in your world that's how it works but in ours it most definitely isn't. But it's a pretty well-delivered insult nonetheless.

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

PS: Late Edit from DORIS: VCA POSTING POLICY # 9: "Negative statements about vendors, customers, or others must be first hand, and substantiated. Furthermore, we reserve the right to hold negative posts until substantiated, and to give the parties reasonable time to work it out. "

Hi Doris! Glad we are on the same page - now let's work on Jon.

Okay, in all seriousness and without any of the personal BS that seems to infect many a post, here is the deal as I see it:

1. Lou's ad raised some concerns with Chrysler as it may (or may not imply) their testing and tuning, and thus "endorsement"
2. There is one car out there which is experiencing an occasional check engine light with the headers and it happens to be in Michigan. Lou states, and I agree, that it is probably a faulty install or some minor issue, as no other 2008 is having that problem.
3. Nonetheless, the manufacturer felt that they had a duty to "correct" possible misstatements in that ad. They (legal) never, ever post here nor would they. However they felt the message had to be delivered and asked the VCA to do it.
4. Lou is a personal friend to me and I hate this thread only slightly less than Lou does - and more than JonB. However in the interest of the VCA and maintaining that critical relationship with the manufacturer, we passed along the message as requested. Even toned it down a bit.

And my personal feeling on the issue itself is that it is standard CYA and pretty understandable too - even JonB said it: "The Chrysler Lawyers will NEVER (and HAVE NEVER) let it appear that any endorsement or recommendation is being made of such horrendous devices that are melting glaciers worldwide." Throw in even a rare check engine light (which many an owner might expect to be fixed under warranty), and Chrysler simply wants to cover their bases.

As for me, if I can score one of these 2008's or 2009's (shhh, don't tell Venomiss), Belanger headers will be the FIRST modification I do - then the MGW shift kit. Fuzzy dice come later and I don't care if they throw a "check windshield" light or not.

Over and out,

Chris

[Shelby3]

It appears that all of the consternation would have been avoided if VCA posting policy #9 had been followed in the initial post.

[rcl4668]

Originally Posted by Y2K5SRT

I swear Jon, you will be the death of me and you aren't helping anybody in this case. But allow me to expand, as you did below:



Careful what you wish for: It was CHRYSLER that asked this to be posted and CHRYSLER that said to mention Belanger specifically. Why? See for yourself:



I sure am glad that the people that work so hard on this site gave us smilies for every occasion:


And I spoke with Lou personally and at length earlier this evening. What you fail to realize is that I think the absolute world of Lou and his products. Or did you miss the second post in this thread?


Can't and won't disagree with a single thing here. Indeed, I was thrilled to see Lou's headers on display at NAIAS - and figured it was an "endorsement by default". But lawyer I ain't. The ones that are say that it was not factory tested and tuned - at least by their factory.


The "weasel" thing is such a nice touch, especially when you look at the ad above. I didn't write the ad, didn't object to it, but did post what we were asked to post. How do you cook the messenger after you shoot them?


I'll do you one better: In ALL of the 2008 Belanger systems installed to date, only ONE is known to have a recurring issue with a check engine light (CEL). But apparently that was enough to make some folks nervous in Auburn Hills. Especially when the ad refers to "factory tested and tuned to be OBD 2 compliant". Lou clarified that and pointed out he is referring to HIS factory and not Chrysler, which we are passing back to them. I will leave the OBD 2 language to the concerned parties.


Feel free to ask the lawyers.


Now you know the source, so drop the rhetoric if you don't mind.


$10.00 says it will be "no comment", as it probably should be - leave it to the lawyers that are concerned with the language.


I suspect this is when the million-candlepower light bulb went off over a few heads.


Clarified that for you and glad we agree on it.


I'm not going to try and interpret this, but it sure doesn't sound promising.


Wow, so you honestly think that the VCA or any of its officers would knowingly name a very respected vendor on a questionable issue simply in order to promote the interests of another vendor? Maybe in your world that's how it works but in ours it most definitely isn't. But it's a pretty well-delivered insult nonetheless.


Hi Doris! Glad we are on the same page - now let's work on Jon.

Okay, in all seriousness and without any of the personal BS that seems to infect many a post, here is the deal as I see it:

1. Lou's ad raised some concerns with Chrysler as it may (or may not imply) their testing and tuning, and thus "endorsement"
2. There is one car out there which is experiencing an occasional check engine light with the headers and it happens to be in Michigan. Lou states, and I agree, that it is probably a faulty install or some minor issue, as no other 2008 is having that problem.
3. Nonetheless, the manufacturer felt that they had a duty to "correct" possible misstatements in that ad. They (legal) never, ever post here nor would they. However they felt the message had to be delivered and asked the VCA to do it.
4. Lou is a personal friend to me and I hate this thread only slightly less than Lou does - and more than JonB. However in the interest of the VCA and maintaining that critical relationship with the manufacturer, we passed along the message as requested. Even toned it down a bit.

And my personal feeling on the issue itself is that it is standard CYA and pretty understandable too - even JonB said it: "The Chrysler Lawyers will NEVER (and HAVE NEVER) let it appear that any endorsement or recommendation is being made of such horrendous devices that are melting glaciers worldwide." Throw in even a rare check engine light (which many an owner might expect to be fixed under warranty), and Chrysler simply wants to cover their bases.

As for me, if I can score one of these 2008's or 2009's (shhh, don't tell Venomiss), Belanger headers will be the FIRST modification I do - then the MGW shift kit. Fuzzy dice come later and I don't care if they throw a "check windshield" light or not.

Over and out,

Chris

Chris --

Thanks for the clarification above; it is a huge relief to me.

/Rich