Belanger problems again

[Chopper]

Originally Posted by plumcrazy

did you vote in wormdoggy's poll ? make sure to do so if not.

Yes I did vote.

[twinturbo3150]

wormdoggy can you please tell me how many miles you clocked before you first started haveing problems. thanks

[GuitarSteve]

I spoke to Patrick earlier today and he seemed really bummed out about the whole issue. I've heard quite a few Vipers and I must say the Belanger setup is one of the meanest sounding setups on the market. But what's the point of sounding mean when you throw codes all the time and have techical difficulties? Good luck everyone and I hope this fiasco gets resolved...SOON!!!

-Steve

[Fast Too]

Wormdoggy here is a link to fabricate a copper heat sink. You might consider this.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/s...C-1_Manual.pdf

[wormdoggy]

Originally Posted by twinturbo3150

wormdoggy can you please tell me how many miles you clocked before you first started haveing problems. thanks

Hello Twin........lets see the first time I drove the car home from the Viper Tech about 6 miles and the check engine light came. This was before I shielded the wires. The 2nd and 3rd times the check engine light came on but at longer distances. Can't quite remember but it was a very hot day when I removed the sills and checked the sensor, it was as if the wiring was fried from within the sensor casing.

Patrick

[Flash1034]

Any word yet from Bellanger?

Flash

[wormdoggy]

Originally Posted by Flash1034

Any word yet from Bellanger?

Flash

Nope not a peep , not even a peep from the people that sold me this product or are selling this product.

Like I said I would really appreciate a public response on this forum so everyone can read it and decide for themselves.

Get it through your head folks this is not going to go away. There is way too much public interest and concern and the polls are showing that at 40% disapproval rate.

Patrick

[plumcrazy]

40% is a serious problem.......wake up lou !

[FLL-B/W-GTS]

Wow,I was thinking about a system for my 2008 coupe.No way now,until they make it correct for you.I could not deal with that check engine light comimg on.One lost customer.Thanks for the information,

[Kenneth Krieger]

Wormdoggy........Well..... I just have to jump in here. I have a couple of questions about your "poll" itself. If there are 40% who have had problems, complaints, whatever with the Blenager headers/exhaust.........how many are there that make up the 40%?........I believe to date there have been about 1,500 or 1,600 sets of Belanger headers that have been produced for the Viper......I've had 2 sets myself. One on my 94 with the Roe Blower, NOS, H2O meth injection, Gregg Good heads....absolutely no difficulties. Now I have an 05 Comm. Edition and after the install let's say about 150 miles of driving threw a CEL......figured out it was MY fault as the O2 sensor wiring harness on the passenger side was touching the back header tube and that's what created the CEL......pulled the harness away from the header tube, reinsulated it at the closest point to the tube and "voila"......CEL went out in about 6 miles of driving. No other problems what-so-ever. Installed with a friend and we were finished in 4 hours. Very reasonable installation. There HAS TO BE some type of signal inteference that is creating the problem in your car. Who was the "Viper Tech" that said there are problems with the Belanger headers? Who are the "6" other Viper Techs who claim the same thing? I would like to know who they are so I can stay away from them for service.

McClaren tested the Belanger headers on the 08, along with other header manufacturers and what header was chosen as the one they used on the test mules? (Look on page 51 of the latest Viper magazine.....you'll see Belanger headers.......I think they used an 06 header and changed the configuration on the head porting to adapt it to the 08 heads. From what I understand, Belangers were the ONLY header not to throw a CEL on the 08's. Must be something that you are doing, or should I say NOT doing that continues to create your CEL problem. Why are all the others, with the exception of a few (out of 1,500 + sets) only those who are having difficulties with a CEL?

I have another difficulty with your situation (from my perspective....in other words....IMHO) with the statement that Lou Belanger "hung up on you". I just have a very hard time in believeing that. Am I calling you a liar? NO.......I'm just questioning that a guy with Lou's track record in the industry would just hang up on you for no reason. That just doesn't sound like him....just a little hokey as far as I'm concerned.....again, IMHO. There is a solution to YOUR problem........it just has to be tracked down......is that the manufacturers duty or his problem?..........I think not......unless HE installed the headers.......then he has a duty to figure it out. If you didn't install the headers, then your "Viper Tech" should KNOW what to do to solve the problem......if not, then I don't believe the "Viper Tech" can be trusted with solving other, more difficult problems that can occur with a Viper.

Again......let me know who all these "Viper Techs" are that made the statements about Belanger headers in your previous threads........I'd really like to know, then I can personally go to them and ask questions about their "difficulties" with the Belangers to be able to help others in the club who might have questions in the future.

[wormdoggy]

Originally Posted by Kenneth Krieger

Wormdoggy........Well..... I just have to jump in here. I have a couple of questions about your "poll" itself. If there are 40% who have had problems, complaints, whatever with the Blenager headers/exhaust.........how many are there that make up the 40%?........I believe to date there have been about 1,500 or 1,600 sets of Belanger headers that have been produced for the Viper......I've had 2 sets myself. One on my 94 with the Roe Blower, NOS, H2O meth injection, Gregg Good heads....absolutely no difficulties. Now I have an 05 Comm. Edition and after the install let's say about 150 miles of driving threw a CEL......figured out it was MY fault as the O2 sensor wiring harness on the passenger side was touching the back header tube and that's what created the CEL......pulled the harness away from the header tube, reinsulated it at the closest point to the tube and "voila"......CEL went out in about 6 miles of driving. No other problems what-so-ever. Installed with a friend and we were finished in 4 hours. Very reasonable installation. There HAS TO BE some type of signal inteference that is creating the problem in your car. Who was the "Viper Tech" that said there are problems with the Belanger headers? Who are the "6" other Viper Techs who claim the same thing? I would like to know who they are so I can stay away from them for service.

McClaren tested the Belanger headers on the 08, along with other header manufacturers and what header was chosen as the one they used on the test mules? (Look on page 51 of the latest Viper magazine.....you'll see Belanger headers.......I think they used an 06 header and changed the configuration on the head porting to adapt it to the 08 heads. From what I understand, Belangers were the ONLY header not to throw a CEL on the 08's. Must be something that you are doing, or should I say NOT doing that continues to create your CEL problem. Why are all the others, with the exception of a few (out of 1,500 + sets) only those who are having difficulties with a CEL?

I have another difficulty with your situation (from my perspective....in other words....IMHO) with the statement that Lou Belanger "hung up on you". I just have a very hard time in believeing that. Am I calling you a liar? NO.......I'm just questioning that a guy with Lou's track record in the industry would just hang up on you for no reason. That just doesn't sound like him....just a little hokey as far as I'm concerned.....again, IMHO. There is a solution to YOUR problem........it just has to be tracked down......is that the manufacturers duty or his problem?..........I think not......unless HE installed the headers.......then he has a duty to figure it out. If you didn't install the headers, then your "Viper Tech" should KNOW what to do to solve the problem......if not, then I don't believe the "Viper Tech" can be trusted with solving other, more difficult problems that can occur with a Viper.

Again......let me know who all these "Viper Techs" are that made the statements about Belanger headers in your previous threads........I'd really like to know, then I can personally go to them and ask questions about their "difficulties" with the Belangers to be able to help others in the club who might have questions in the future.

Listen I'm not going to mention any names. I don't want to turn this thread into a bashing thread. My intentions were to be assisted with a product that has cost me and others considerable time and money. But all I kept hearing was there is no problem!!

If those individuals ( Viper techs ) I talked to wish to reveal themselves, then I would appreciate it. Cause you are pretty much saying that there are a lot of Viper Tech idiots that can't install a simple bolt on exhaust system. Well I'll leave it to those individuals to come forth on there own initiative and defend themselves. They have done a lot of installs and have pretty much witnessed the concerns.

AND YES YES YES and very much YES.......while I was talking to Lou he did hang up the phone on me. And if Lou is a man with integrity, he would step up and admit to it. It did nothing other than piss off an already pissed off customer. And trust me, you don't want to piss me off. Look at the results it caused .......and this is only the first step.

The fact of the matter is that the poll is a suvery of public opinion from a small sample of a larger group. 40% of those who were polled and I would suspect this number would continue if we continued this poll, have had or are having a problem with the belanger system. The President of the Quebec club and others have said that they have encountered this problem many times and those people have not even voted yet.

And I have never questioned the headers, I have always said that the problem I am having is with the secondary 02 sensors that keep burning within a cavity that gets extremely hot, GEN 3 models ONLY.

Isn't that why Lou is provided sox with his kits now??? He even told me that he is looking at designing a shorter 02 sensor.

My car is running fine and diagnostically correct. There is nothing wrong with it.

Maybe we should be trying to help the 40% of the so called worthless minority who are having issues. As a business man does it really matter if 1 2 or 300 people are having problems. Doesn't one individual matter as much as the majority. Lets stop " silly politics " please.

Perhaps we can get to the bottom and assist the 40% and climbing with their problems. Thats would be nice since they are the consumers. Put yourself among the 40% ....what would you do, expect and want?

Patrick

[OKFireChief]

I have a full set of Belanger exhaust on my 06 VOI 9 Coupe. The install was done over a year ago. Put a little over 1,000 miles on the car with NO problems at all. I have called Lou on many occasions for Viper perfromance tips. Found him friendly and easy to work with ...

Four of our club members have Gen 3 Belanger systems with no probs as yet. We have one Viper Tech that does all our work ...

Let me know if we can help!!! Good luck ... Jon

[wormdoggy]

Originally Posted by OKFireChief

I have a full set of Belanger exhaust on my 06 VOI 9 Coupe. The install was done over a year ago. Put a little over 1,000 miles on the car with NO problems at all. I have called Lou on many occasions for Viper perfromance tips. Found him friendly and easy to work with ...

Four of our club members have Gen 3 Belanger systems with no probs as yet. We have one Viper Tech that does all our work ...

Let me know if we can help!!! Good luck ... Jon

Thanks for the offer Jon....could you please send me the name of your Viper Tech, private PM. I would like to have mine call him for additional information please.

Thanks again.
Patrick

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Just curious... on your 'voting' it doesnt have an option of 'do not have belenger headers' so if you want to see the results, you have to either have a problem or not have a problem, even if your a on-looker who just wants to see the results. I didnt click becasue I knew I didnt qualify under either. But I have a feeling, people are more apt to click 'have a problem' just as a form of support to you and this thread, when the reality is, they may be like me, and wanted to see the results but couldnt without clicking through with an answer. I avoided it. But I guess to offset these other 'questionable' votes, I'll vote 'no problem' becasue between the two, thats actually the answer for me, since I actually am NOT having a problem with belenger headers.. easily doable when you dont own a set.



Jon

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Yes 8
36.36%
No 14
63.64%
Voters: 22.

FYI

[SNKEBIT]

Originally Posted by wormdoggy

Isn't that why Lou is provided sox with his kits now??? He even told me that he is looking at designing a shorter 02 sensor.

This is it in a nutshell.............. The only fix. The heat socks are not the issue, the end of the 02 sensor rubs on the side sill insulation and ruins the wires.

[wormdoggy]

Originally Posted by SNKEBIT

This is it in a nutshell.............. The only fix. The heat socks are not the issue, the end of the 02 sensor rubs on the side sill insulation and ruins the wires.

What I found snake is that when I wrapped the 02 sensor and wiring, it seemed to have trapped the heat and melted the wires from within. Dan from Viper speciality is a pretty knowledgeable guy. I'll be seeing him next week. Hopefully we can come up with something.
Patrick

[plumcrazy]

has anyone seen or heard from lou or is his head still in the sand ?

[wormdoggy]

Originally Posted by plumcrazy

has anyone seen or heard from lou or is his head still in the sand ?

Hey Plum............I have not heard from Lou at all.
So here is my public request for Lou for the last time. Please come online and comment on all those individuals that are having a product problem with your exhaust system. Provide your comments and PLEASE post instructions that come with your system on this forum for everyone to read. My Viper techs would really like to see an instructional document.

Thank you
Patrick

[Kenneth Krieger]

Moondoggy.....I just need to clarify where you got the idea as you stated right after my thread, that there is a "worthless minority" of people with "problems"? Are you putting words into my mouth? No one called anyone worthless! Now......you have 22 people "voting" with 8 having complaints.....let's see now......8 out of 1,500 sets would be 1/12th of one percent. this is a lot of racket over a very minor amount of problems.....again.....me thinketh that you protesteth too much! If there were difficulties with the downstream O2 sensors on your car that CAN"T be diagnosed.....again......I reiterate there HAS to be something that YOU haven't done or COULD do to rectify the problem. 8 out of 1,500+.........I have empathy for your difficulties, but again.....there HAS to be a solution.....and it just maybe something else in you electrical system that is deffective in some way. Call Eddie Martin (Viper Tech.....Bill Luke Dodge in Phoenix and ask his opinion!) 602-448-1587 and tell him I referred you.

I also see that you live in Canada.....so heat CAN'T be an issue......Here is Phoenix we have had 115 degress a number of times this summer and NO O2 sensor heat issues, or burning wires, or O2 sensors "burning up".......just thought I'd throw that into the mix!

[JonB - PartsRack]

Originally Posted by wormdoggy

Listen I'm not going to mention any names. I don't want to turn this thread into a bashing thread. ..........And if Lou is a man with integrity, he would step up and admit to it. It did nothing other than piss off an already pissed off customer. And trust me, you don't want to piss me off. Look at the results it caused .......and this is only the first step.

Patrick: The above quote sounds like a threat. In my opinion. NOT ALLOWED HERE.

Fact # 1: At the very start of this thread, maybe before, you called ME and insisted you bought the Belangers from PartsRack! While I deeply appreciate your business, and I was happy to try and help, you were WRONG then: Fact is, you had only bought Belanger gaskets and header bolts from me. (95% of the time this is for guys who bought USED.)


Fact # 2: You later say you did buy from a VCA vendor, but where is THEIR name and their advice? It is NOT a product issue. I want you to solve this INSTALL ISSUE, and Id like to help. But as adamant as you were that you bought them from PartsRack, you proved that memory lapses are also at play here.... [At my age Im a lapse expert!]

[Late Edit: After insisting you bought here, and then hearing my bolt-gasket documentation, you decided you 'could not remember' who you bought from. Later on this thread, you refused to say. Later still: "BTR"]

[rcl4668]

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

Patrick: The above quote sounds like a threat. In my opinion. NOT ALLOWED HERE.

Fact # 1: At the very start of this thread, maybe before, you called ME and insisted you bought the Belangers from PartsRack! While I deeply appreciate you business, and I was happy to try and help, you were WRONG then: Fact is, you had only bought Belanger gaskets and header bolts from me. (95% of the time this is for guys who bought USED.)

Fact # 2: You later say you did buy from a VCA vendor, but where is THEIR name and their advice? It is NOT a product issue. I want you to solve this INSTALL ISSUE, and Id like to help. But as adamant as you were that you bought them from PartsRack, you proved that memory lapses are also at play here.... [At my age Im a lapse expert!}

I posted early on in this thread and have been monitoring it off and on since then. With all due respect to you Patrick (and I do want to make clear that I wish nothing more than to have you resolve these issues to your satisfaction and for you to enjoy your car fully) it does appear that there are enough variables here in terms of source of purchase, manner of installation, etc. that one cannot look solely to Lou Belanger and his product as the cause and sole responsible party. In the interest of full disclosure I am one of those folks who has a full Belanger system and has been completely satisfied both with Lou's product as well as his responsiveness to my frequent and sometimes pathetically novice questions (hey Lou, what tool do I use to perform the required 1,000 mile retorque of the header bolts? Lou: Rich, a wrench ).

While it seems that unfortunately some bridges are in the process of being burned here, I would suggest that you contact Lou privately to try to express your clear frustration in a way that is productive. I don't know frankly who said what to anger people first but what I can say as a fact that Lou Belanger is a tremendous resource and it will just be a shame if you and he can't work this out. I am not sure, however, that asking for a response in an internet chat forum under these circumstances is the best way to go.

Just my two cents which you are of course free to disregard but I just want you to be able to get you and your car back on track without going down a path that may not get you want you really want: answers and a solution.

Good luck and I hope you get this resolved soon.

/Rich

[Marv S]

Here's a comment on this from someone that has a lot of first hand knowledge on Viper products.

Originally Posted by mjorgensen

The routing of the wiring is the most important thing with the Gen3 cars. We had a few issues with the 02's but when we wrapped the sensor and kept the wires away from "chafing " areas we were problem free. Anything you do aftermarket though has the potential for trouble you just need to try and improve upon the install at times.

(800-889-1893 Woodhouse Dodge)

I trust Mark Jorgensen's account far more than those that claim a problem and further claim viper techs have told him they have the same problem - but then those techs stay in the shadows and he won't disclose who they are. This is not a product design or production fault.

Sometimes you have to choose who you will believe.

[Coloviper]

Rich;

Awesome response! I was typing up a response when I read yours and deleted 3/4 of mine.

I am all for not supporting shoddy workmanship and products, but of all the header, cats, cat-back systems I have purchased over the years for many different vehicles; Borla, Edelbrock, Hooker, Bellanger, the Bellanger system is by far the highest quality and right up there with the Borla systems which I thought were the cat's meow.

I have over 1,000 miles on my full Bellanger system as of yesterday and have experienced not one problem. In fact it has resolved all the problems I wanted it to fix; sound, heat and HP. I could not be happier so what is expressed in this thread is very foreign to me and I know a number of other happy cusotmers and Viper owners. From my vantage point, it looks like the people who have probelms are ones which have heavily modified cars anyway, well with the exception of you Patrick. I still think it is an install issue.

As far as issue resolve, it never works to try a public hanging of the owner of the product. NEVER! In the end, it just makes the person complaining look bad. Truthfully, if someone talked to me in my business, like what was expressed in this thread towards me personally, Number 1, he would not be working for me and secondly, if he did not work for me, I would tell him to take a hike.

Having spoken to Lou myself, I always found him very accomidating and helpful. Same goes for Jon at Partsrack, where I did purchase my Bellanger system from. I had some custom work on my system with coating the tips black with Jet-Hot prior to shipping it to me. Both Jon and Lou had 4 sets of tips done to get it right. They would not let it leave with shoddy work. Yah, I waited a bit longer but I held my cool and waited. In the end, everything was perfect.

I agree with Rich in that you should take this off-line and with Lou. If still unhappy, I am sure Lou would just buy back the system through your VCA-approved vendor you purchased it brand new from. It is obvious, it is not the system for you as it is not to your liking. I am sure as an honorable individual that he might be open to that.

Hope it all works out.

[wormdoggy]

Love the responses and thanks to those offering solutions and references.

Quotations from this thread. For the life of me I still fail to understand how anyone can still claim this to be an isolated case. I did not quote those with good experiences since I recognize them and only wish I had your driving time ........

QUOTES:

" had EXACTLY the same problem; i purchased that system tip to toe in spring of 06 and burned out the o2 sensor repeatedly which resulted in check engine light coming on. After complaining to John B and Lou Bellanger I was told he had now developed a "heat sock" to protect the sensor".

" would be interested to see how and if you solve this. I have had this problem every since I put my Belangers on".

"My OBD II light comes on every third start up or so. I clear them w/ my code reader...2 starts later, its back. I have the O2 sims, still getting codes. Tator wrapped my Belangers w/ so much insulation we cannot fit anymore in there to protect the O2 heaters...still throwing codes"

"The last time I was in for the 02 code issue (both sides, rears), DC did cut a very small piece of the heat shield, fold it back and wrap the wiring and sensor with insulation."

"It's a flaw in the system. Because these cars vary from car to car, not all the distances are the same. The O2 sensor sticks straight out from the pipe and the sill / insulation rubs through the wire coating and destroys the O2 sensor".

"I am certainly pleased with the performance and sound but I had to throw good money after bad trying to get that engine light out."

"I had my reverse lock out because of wires on this system heating up.It blew a fuse. I'm now afraid to drive the car anywhere for fear the 02's will burn up.What am I supposed to do now".

"Yup just had the problem. I have the Balanger Headers only with Corsa. Im either going to move to Cat Sims or try some relocation of the wires and extreme insulation tactics"

"I have had Belanger headers going on a year now and I use Sims. Have not had one issue to date with them"

"We have a dealer in the club that had a lot of troubles with this problem.
The burning wires have caused a lot of headackes.
For some reason this is an issue on the GEN3s:"

And the responses from people like Kenneth " Kreiger"..this is a lot of racket over a very minor amount of problems.....Hmmmm... But in any case Kenneth thanks for the reference on technical advise I will call him. And by the way the name is wormdoggy not moondoggy. Got that Betty Kreiker?

Jon B. You do have memory lapses ( probably like me.....brain over load ) since when I spoke to you, I did mention that I thought it was you, but point in fact I later told you that I was mistaken and that the system was purchased from BTR Performance. I just wanted some kind of a response from you since you also sell the brand to your customers.

Anyway this can go on and on.... I'm not going to make this into a nasty " silly politics " debate. The facts are in front of everyone to see. Polls, good comments and bad comments. In the end, hopefully, this thread will have contributed to some informative information fror the consumer.

In saying that, however, well lets just say I am not quite finished with this yet. The offer to buy back the system or credit me for future purchases would be great. I would gladly give it up given the grief I have had over the last year. But then there is still the matter of all the other people who purchased it as well. What about them?

Patrick

[twinturbo3150]

I was surfing and found a 45 degree O2 bung. I wonder if this would take care of the issue of the O2 wires.
EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - Stainless Steel 45 Degree Angled O2 Sensor Bung

[Kenneth Krieger]

What issue with the O2 sensor wires? If installed properly there is NO issue with the O2 sensor wires!!!

[johnk]

Originally Posted by wormdoggy

Love the responses and thanks to those offering solutions and references.

Quotations from this thread. For the life of me I still fail to understand how anyone can still claim this to be an isolated case. I did not quote those with good experiences since I recognize them and only wish I had your driving time ........

QUOTES:

" had EXACTLY the same problem; i purchased that system tip to toe in spring of 06 and burned out the o2 sensor repeatedly which resulted in check engine light coming on. After complaining to John B and Lou Bellanger I was told he had now developed a "heat sock" to protect the sensor".

" would be interested to see how and if you solve this. I have had this problem every since I put my Belangers on".

"My OBD II light comes on every third start up or so. I clear them w/ my code reader...2 starts later, its back. I have the O2 sims, still getting codes. Tator wrapped my Belangers w/ so much insulation we cannot fit anymore in there to protect the O2 heaters...still throwing codes"

"The last time I was in for the 02 code issue (both sides, rears), DC did cut a very small piece of the heat shield, fold it back and wrap the wiring and sensor with insulation."

"It's a flaw in the system. Because these cars vary from car to car, not all the distances are the same. The O2 sensor sticks straight out from the pipe and the sill / insulation rubs through the wire coating and destroys the O2 sensor".

"I am certainly pleased with the performance and sound but I had to throw good money after bad trying to get that engine light out."

"I had my reverse lock out because of wires on this system heating up.It blew a fuse. I'm now afraid to drive the car anywhere for fear the 02's will burn up.What am I supposed to do now".

"Yup just had the problem. I have the Balanger Headers only with Corsa. Im either going to move to Cat Sims or try some relocation of the wires and extreme insulation tactics"

"I have had Belanger headers going on a year now and I use Sims. Have not had one issue to date with them"

"We have a dealer in the club that had a lot of troubles with this problem.
The burning wires have caused a lot of headackes.
For some reason this is an issue on the GEN3s:"

And the responses from people like Kenneth " Kreiger"..this is a lot of racket over a very minor amount of problems.....Hmmmm... But in any case Kenneth thanks for the reference on technical advise I will call him. And by the way the name is wormdoggy not moondoggy. Got that Betty Kreiker?

Jon B. You do have memory lapses ( probably like me.....brain over load ) since when I spoke to you, I did mention that I thought it was you, but point in fact I later told you that I was mistaken and that the system was purchased from BTR Performance. I just wanted some kind of a response from you since you also sell the brand to your customers.

Anyway this can go on and on.... I'm not going to make this into a nasty " silly politics " debate. The facts are in front of everyone to see. Polls, good comments and bad comments. In the end, hopefully, this thread will have contributed to some informative information fror the consumer.

In saying that, however, well lets just say I am not quite finished with this yet. The offer to buy back the system or credit me for future purchases would be great. I would gladly give it up given the grief I have had over the last year. But then there is still the matter of all the other people who purchased it as well. What about them?

Patrick

It appears that Patrick would rather spend hours and hours in front of his computer quoting this and quoting that, posting polls that, by their nature, can not be truely representative. I believe that if you channeled that energy into resolving your problem this thread would be closed. How can I help?






.............

[black mamba1]

Originally Posted by JonB - PartsRack

You CANNOT blame a header for these codes !!!

Bull****. These codes did not come until the headers were installed.

But maybe since I did a bunch of other stuff...you might be right

[Viper Specialty]

Patrick- I am most certain I have a permanent solution for you after looking over the pictures. However, its going to take quite a bit of time at the TIG machine to get it all done.

FYI, if you want me to take a whack at this, plan on dropping the car off, this is going to be a 1-2 day'er easily. The O2's are going to be relocated, repositioned, and the wires rerouted elsewhere. Also, if you want the car tuned, add a day or so onto that, and I'll get it on the Dyno for you and find a few missing ponies to add to your stable.