Belanger problems again

[wormdoggy]

Make a long story short, I had problems with the secondary 02 sensor position on this system. The o2 sensors kept burning out and producing a check engine light. After three attempts to shield the sensors ( all failed ) I finally was told to put 02 sensors simms on the vehicle.
Well, I went today to get emissions done and it failed . Can't think of a short term remedy other than to replace the exhaust. Anyone experience similar problems?

I have the complete system from headers to high flows and exhaust by belanger.

Thanks
Patrick

[ViperTony]

Have you spoken to Lou Belanger about the problem? Try giving him a call at 623-582-5900.

[dave6666]

What do you mean by burning out, and by the shielding? I'll assume since you're talking about the rears - away from the header heat - you're talking about internal burning out.

Do you have cats? What kind? If no, then are you burning up the sensors with your fumes?

Do they sniff for your test?

[Coloviper]

Not sure what is happening with your system, but I have the full Bellanger exhaust system on my 06' Coupe and after 500+ miles, I haven't had a problem. Since they test in Colorado as well, I took it in for a test and it ran cleaner than a brand new Shelby GT-500 that someone recently brought in from out of state.

Sounds like you might have another issue outside of the header/hi/flo cat/cat back system. You are not adding racing fuel or 93+ gas with a ton of octane booster are you? The racing fuel will burn out your cats AND O2 sensors if prolonged use.

Give Lou a call!

[2006red/whitecoupe]

I had EXACTLY the same problem; i purchased that system tip to toe in spring of 06 and burned out the o2 sensor repeatedly which resulted in check engine light coming on. After complaining to John B and Lou Bellanger I was told he had now developed a "heat sock" to protect the sensor. [now you tell me] I still had problems and he then suggested I purchase simms which I did and check engine light went out. We don't emission test here anymore so I don't know if it would pass.

[Kenneth Krieger]

I have had Belangers on both of my Vipers.....Gen 1 and Gen 3. No problems with the Gen 1, but did have an issue with the downstream O2 sensor on the passenger side throwing a CEL. Finally....... discovered that the O2 sensor wiring harness on that side was just touching the back header tube. Thought it might have burned through the wiring on the harness. Unplugged the harness, and took off all the insualtion only to find NO burned, cracked, or broken wires. Now what? Well, repalced the heat shield insulation on the O2 sensor harness, and then made a "bracket" and attached the bracket to the firewall, and then pulled the harness away from the header tube and attached to the "bracket". Voila, the CEL went out after about 3 miles of driving and hasn't come on since. I saw Lou Belanger the next week and he reminded me that the electronic signal from the O2 sensor was "interupted" by the heat from the header tube, and that's what threw the CEL. Heat was the problem......check out your wiring harness and wiring geography and make sure that you don't have the same thing happening. Don't hesitate to call Lou.......he is a great guy and will help you out ay way he can.

[black mamba1]

I would be interested to see how and if you solve this. I have had this problem every since I put my Belangers on. I love the power, I love the sound, I hate the constant throwing of the codes. We tried everything, insulation, O2 sims, etc. Nothing worked. Finally, I was given a new card to solve the problem (I have a VEC 3), but I refuse to use it b/c it costs me like 20 hp. So I just keep clearing the codes.

But sometimes the codes dont come. I havent had any codes now for a little over a week. But I still have not found a permanent solutions. My codes are left bank rich, and/or right bank rich, or cylinder misfire.

[wormdoggy]

Listen folks I have tried everything with this exhaust. Wrapping, changing wires, 3 sets of 02 sensors bla bla bla.........I have always said that the position of the secondary sensors are in a not ideal location. IMHO.
I hope there is a fix for this IMHO...............and its obvious from the above that this is not an isolated case.
I will be calling Lou and Jon at partsrack for this issue.
Will keep you informed.
Patrick

[ViperTony]

Originally Posted by wormdoggy

Listen folks I have tried everything with this exhaust. Wrapping, changing wires, 3 sets of 02 sensors bla bla bla.........I have always said that the position of the secondary sensors are in a not ideal location. IMHO.
I hope there is a fix for this IMHO...............and its obvious from the above that this is not an isolated case.
I will be calling Lou and Jon at partsrack for this issue.
Will keep you informed.
Patrick

You can try giving Chuck Tator a call as well. I bet he's worked through this issue.

[JonB - PartsRack]

Originally Posted by wormdoggy

.....I will be calling Lou and Jon at partsrack for this issue.
Will keep you informed. ..Patrick....

Patrick, I am happy to try and help, even tho you did NOT buy the system thru PartsRack.
My records do show that you only bought header gaskets and BOLTS from PartsRack, which usually indicates a used system may be at play here......???

I suspect the sill insulation is a primary factor, SITTING on the sensor wires and abrading them........ CALL LOU FIRST !

[JonB - PartsRack]

Originally Posted by black mamba1

.......... My codes are left bank rich, and/or right bank rich, or cylinder misfire...........

You CANNOT blame a header for these codes !!!

[plumcrazy]

id agree, not likely a header problem

[rcl4668]

I purchased the Belanger header/exhaust system for my 2008. I strongly agree with those that have recommended you contacting or e-mailing Lou Belanger directly. Lou is not only extremely knowledgeable but is very accessible. Let me put it this way: I e-mailed Lou about how to retorque the header bolts (instructions require retorquing at 1,000 miles) myself and he called me personally within 1-2 days to walk me through the process.

Given that so few Belanger kits have any issues, my sense is that Lou would not only be willing to assist you as a purchaser of his system but would also be very curious about what is the cause of the problem.

/Rich

[wormdoggy]

Alright .....lets set the record straight.

My car is stock other than the exhaust, headers and high flow cats from Belanger.

I love the system, the way it sounds, the way it looks and everything about it. I'm even planning to purchase it for my GTS, however, in saying that the position of the 02 sensors ( on 3rd gen models only ) makes it very diffucult for the wires not to be damaged with all that heat. I've gone through this 3 times. I have taken pictures have shown it to three separate mechanics and they all say that sensor location will not withstand the heat. I even wrapped the 02 sensor with a spark plug boot sox and the same thing occurred.

I spoke to Lou in great detail today. Yes he is a great guy and yes he is very helpful but in the end I'm the one with the continued problems like those other individuals who posted a comments above. The bottom line is that I cannot believe that a 4th attempt to wrap the 02 sensors will resolve this problem which is what Lou is recommending.

Lou is working on another " fix " and it might be available shortly. If he can produce that fix these problem without a doubt will be solved.

This is NOT a problem with GTS installs, its only a problem on 3rd generation models.

Even if the sill is sitting on the sensor wire, if its covered with spark plug boot sox shielding, how is it possible for the wire to be burnt. In addition, anyone, who owns an SRT-10 will also know that the shielding will eventually come loose or shift. If this occurs, it is inevitable then for the wiring to be damaged.

LOOK ABOVE !!!!! in the posts. 4 people have who have admitted to buying this system have had problems one way or another. Also below I have attached links on this issue from other purchasers of the system. That's more than a ****ing coincidence. Maybe I'll just start a poll and really get to the bottom of this nonsense.

At the end of the day, if I can't resolve this problem, I'll need to re-install a complete system. Thousands of dollars have already been spent and A LOT of my valueable business time. The car did not pass emission and will sitting in my driveway until I get a fix or purchase a new sysem.

Also, it doesn't matter who I bought this system from and it was ( NOT ) a used system. The supplier is a very reputable supplier that I was first introduced too when I joined VCA. That supplier is still in business and many VCA members purchase from him.

I would like to know who else has the Belanger system and if they have had ANY issues with it.


Here are some links of other people who have had the same issues.....THIS IS NOT NEW.......C'mon lets get real and solve this ****ing problem. Not blaming anyone I just want a fix!!

Locked out
Still throwing Codes!
O2 sensors going out

Pictures of burnt wires and 3rd attempt at remedy which failed. 02 simms were the final install which fixed the problem of check engine light and reverse lockout solinoid fuse blowing.

ViperClub Photo Gallery - 100_1482
ViperClub Photo Gallery - 100_1480


Thanks
Patrick

[twinturbo3150]

that sucks I hope that doesn't happen to me but from looking at your pictures and seeing where the damage is, I wonder if cutting a piece of the heat shield and folding it back would help.

[wormdoggy]

Originally Posted by twinturbo3150

that sucks I hope that doesn't happen to me but from looking at your pictures and seeing where the damage is, I wonder if cutting a piece of the heat shield and folding it back would help.

NO!! Twin don't do that. The heat would most likely escape and burn the sills. I thought of that as well........not a good idea.
Patrick

[Viper X]

The last time I was in for the 02 code issue (both sides, rears), DC did cut a very small piece of the heat shield, fold it back and wrap the wiring and sensor with insulation.

No issues since then but only about 1000 miles on car since most recent fix.

[pteam]

Can you install this belanger kit yourself? How much is install costing you guys?

[Coloviper]

Sorry I feel your pain and anger (I hve been there too on other mods) on listening to mod recommendations and then being disappointed. For me, it was the stiffer motor and tranny mounts. Cost a lot of money to put them in and pull them out because I did not like the extreme vibrations through out my car.

All I can say is, I now have 800 miles on my Viper since full Bellanger exhaust system install and haven't experienced the problems, the guys have listed. I did not install my system myself, my Viper tech did. It is working perfectly on my car, and has been for some time. I just finished a long trip in the car recently and still no problems.

There may be some people that have had issues, but there are also a lot of people where the system is just, flat out working. Common sense would dictate that it comes down to the installation. I mean unless you follow the procedure for install to a T, it could be where things are not tightened up in the correct order and then are out of align just that little bit to cause problems with slight rubbing, etc. to where that is the cause. A multi-part system has many points to where connections if tightened up in the wrong order will "****-eye" things.

I know this does not help you situation or provide a clear solution, but I would suggest loosening everything up and following the procedure for install to ensure everything is linned up the way it should be. Replace the O2 sensors, both of them and put the heat sock on them and try it again.

Again, all I can say is this system is working on a lot of cars, including mine.

[wormdoggy]

Maybe I should just look at this from a different point of view. I want to get rid of the high flows and exhaust. I'll even give them for free once I find an alternative fix.

I'm just tired of this.......this will be my 5th attempt at this. And for the record the first install was by a Viper Tech who followed the instructions correctly. I witnessed the entire install.

Now to my question...does anyone know..what system will fit the belanger headers?

Thanks for all the responses.
Patrick

[MikeR]

Have you ever thought about just putting a thread in plug in the secondary 02 sensor holes. You can buy from Summit racing. Then just tie strap your secondary 02's up under car. I have headers ,no cats and corsa. Both ILLSMOQ, BLWNGTS and myself all have similar setups, but different headers and each of us just tie strapped our 02 sensors and they read just fine. Never sets a check engine light in like 10k miles. As for your problem with passing smog, well that may not happen anyways, if you remove cats.

As far as removing cats, it will sound awesome, mean and have a loud bark. It will make a little more power too. But after about a year or so, Im starting to have days where Im tired of it. So I will be welding in some cats. But I still will leave my secondary 02's tie strapped up.

[Lee00blacksilverGTS]

After 5 frustrating tries I would seriously call in the big gun experts. Mark Jorgensen at Woodhouse or Chuck Tator.
I know they both would take the time to advise you what to do.
Woodhouse 800 889 1893
Tator 914 763 3136

[wormdoggy]

Originally Posted by MikeR

Have you ever thought about just putting a thread in plug in the secondary 02 sensor holes. You can buy from Summit racing. Then just tie strap your secondary 02's up under car. I have headers ,no cats and corsa. Both ILLSMOQ, BLWNGTS and myself all have similar setups, but different headers and each of us just tie strapped our 02 sensors and they read just fine. Never sets a check engine light in like 10k miles. As for your problem with passing smog, well that may not happen anyways, if you remove cats.

As far as removing cats, it will sound awesome, mean and have a loud bark. It will make a little more power too. But after about a year or so, Im starting to have days where Im tired of it. So I will be welding in some cats. But I still will leave my secondary 02's tie strapped up.

Venom interesting please explain further???? Won't the computer cause the car to run different lean rich etc..???
Please explain further.
Thanks
Patrick

[wormdoggy]

Originally Posted by Lee00blacksilverGTS

After 5 frustrating tries I would seriously call in the big gun experts. Mark Jorgensen at Woodhouse or Chuck Tator.
I know they both would take the time to advise you what to do.
Woodhouse 800 889 1893
Tator 914 763 3136

Chuck YOU THE MAN!!!
Wow..........great guy and very knowledgeable. Simple solution and it will save me a lot of money. One question though Chuck, I thought the 02 sensors registered based on heat. If we were to do the solution your proposed, will the vehicle still pass emissions since there won't be any heat reading.

Thanks so much for the solution and thanks for supporting me on this issue. This is NOT an isolated case.

You people that own belanger on the 3rd gen models, give him a call.........cause you will eventually have to deal with this issue.

Thanks again CHUCK!!
Patrick

[Viper X]

"Thanks so much for the solution and thanks for supporting me on this issue. This is NOT an isolated case."

No it's not. So what's the fix????

[Coloviper]

Glad you got it figured out. Hope it works for a long time!

I would be curious what I need to look out for with a fix, if it does creep up on me in the future though.

[wormdoggy]

Actually there are two fixes that I want to try. The first one is similar to what Mike R was saying. It will stop the check engine lite problems but not certain about the emissions since the 02 sensors need to run hot to register correctly from what I understand. The other one is relocating the seconday 02 sensor input holes.

I will be seeing a Viper tech next week. Will keep you guys informed and I will also be getting additional clarification from Chuck on this issue.

Many thanks to those who helped out and I can tell you for certain it wasn't the developer or the sales people who sold this product. Seems like they can't get it through their heads that there is or at least admit that there is a problem, yet they are trying to develop solutions??????? Solutions like shorter 02 sensors or different cat design. Why develop them if there are no defects with the design???????????????????

For those of you who are selling this item.........LOOK ABOVE in the posts!!! Yes, perhaps there are many who have this system without problems "YET" but it also seems that there a lot of people who are concerned about developing or have had this problem in the past. Stop blaming it on improper install. Its a ***damn simple bolt on system that forces the secondary 02 sensors in a cavity that cannot be sustained with the amount of heat produced ......PERIOD THE END!! I can assure you that this problem will develop on your system in the future.

In my discussions with different individuals this week as well as Dodge Viper tech guys in the US and Canada it seems like EVERYONE I SPOKE too acknowledge that there is a problem with 3rd gen Belanger systems. Everyone ,that is , except the those selling the item.

By the way just curious how many people does it take to admit that they are having a problem with the system before you guys admit to a design flaw?? 1 /2 /3 ....Maybe I should start a poll???

Patrick

[dave6666]

Originally Posted by wormdoggy

By the way just curious how many people does it take to admit that they are having a problem with the system before you guys admit to a design flaw?? 1 /2 /3 ....Maybe I should start a poll???

Patrick

As a Gen2 owner I've been following this as an interesting thread. And your last statement...

There was a recent thread about an aftermarket aluminum radiator for the Gen2. Well known brand. The popular vendor that sells them, and sold me mine that leaked out of the box, admits a 4% or so failure rate.

You have a 1 in 25 chance of getting a bad one. I call junk product on those kind of odds. And I think pressure from the thread contributed to the facts coming out.

So yeah, it would be interesting to see how many Gen3 Belanger systems have been sold, and how many are having this issue.

So yeah, start a poll!

BTW, I have a full Belanger system on my GTS from heads to shiny exhaust tips, and am 100% satisfied with the product at this time. I'm not bashing them at all. This is how troubleshooting is done, and as Patrick pointed out, the designers, manufacturers and sales people usually start squirming when it gets good. We are not idiots.

[wormdoggy]

Originally Posted by dave6666

As a Gen2 owner I've been following this as an interesting thread. And your last statement...

There was a recent thread about an aftermarket aluminum radiator for the Gen2. Well known brand. The popular vendor that sells them, and sold me mine that leaked out of the box, admits a 4% or so failure rate.

You have a 1 in 25 chance of getting a bad one. I call junk product on those kind of odds. And I think pressure from the thread contributed to the facts coming out.

So yeah, it would be interesting to see how many Gen3 Belanger systems have been sold, and how many are having this issue.

So yeah, start a poll!

BTW, I have a full Belanger system on my GTS from heads to shiny exhaust tips, and am 100% satisfied with the product at this time. I'm not bashing them at all. This is how troubleshooting is done, and as Patrick pointed out, the designers, manufacturers and sales people usually start squirming when it gets good. We are not idiots.

Thank you for your words.......

The belanger system on the GTS is very different then on the 3rd gen system. I have not heard of anyone having a problem with the system.

However, in the Viper Club of Ontario, to which I am the Treasurer, there are over 90 members and over 265 gen 3 models sold in Ontario. Of those gen 3's I'm the second owner of a complete Belanger system. The first owner has it on his GTS. So of those 2 owners 1 of us is totally dissatisfied and is trying to resolve a problem which should come from the manufacturer. Thats 50% dissatisfaction rate.

I suspect the sale of complete belanger systems on gen 3 models is low. Most guys have random tech cats and Corsa. But I would also suspect that the problem rate is higher than the 4% you mentioned.

Thanks
Patrick

[ViperTony]

Dumb question: Has the '08 Belanger exhaust been addressed to correct this issue? I know the '08 headers are a bit different but what about the rest of the exhaust? Maybe Lou redesigned that 02 location for '08.