Stability Control and my 2009 SRT crash

[ferraritoviper]

I read the recent 5 page thread on electronic stability control, and was absolutely amazed at the the vast amount of replies, that were adamantly against it! So amazed, that I felt a separate post in favor was necessary, based on my first hand experience this past Sunday....although I'm sure I'll be condemed in one form or another, certainly for lack of concentration and/or poor judgment, however **** happens!

When shifting into second at approx 30mph, I popped the accelerator a tad aggressively and went into an immediate violent 360 deg spin out crashing both sides of my 09 Viper, so damn fast...and with no time and/or room to react. Had there been someone walking a dog or riding a bike, etc., they would have been crushed. As it is the damaged estimate is $55K. With electronic stability control, this almost certainly would not have happened, assuming of course that the switch was on :-) If I'm not totalled out by insurance, guess what I'm having installed...beside PS2 tires? I left my machismo back in the bush a long time ago.

RCK

P/S: In my opinion, "Cop Magnet" had the best common sense response in favor of ESC, in the original thread, page 4.

[gbatejan]

Agree as long as we can turn it off on the track. Most of those against seem to be Gen 1/2 owners and probably wouldn't buy a Gen 4 regardless of whether it did or did not have traction control. Just my opinion. By the way I have the Race Logic Traction control on my 06 but I still need to get it dialed in correctly.

[Nine Ball]

You lost control of a Viper at 30 mph? Hopefully it was raining. I'd be embarrassed to post that. Invest in a good performance driving school

[mjorgensen]

What tires did you have if not the PS2?

[Sweet Ride]

Originally Posted by ferraritoviper

When shifting into second at approx 30mph, I popped the accelerator a tad aggressively and went into an immediate violent 360 deg spin out crashing both sides of my 09 Viper, so damn fast...and with no time and/or room to react.

There's gotta be more to this story and it brings up more questions than answers.

What were the road conditions like?

Don't take this the wrong way but I'm sure for the cost of adding stability control to your car you could take a class at Bondurant, Skip Barber, et al. that would pay far bigger dividends than adding a computer control box. Just my $.02...

[Ken Lally]

Originally Posted by ferraritoviper

When shifting into second at approx 30mph, I popped the accelerator a tad aggressively and went into an immediate violent 360 deg spin out

You forgot to mention..."'While changing lanes'.... when shifing into second....spin out.."

Been there, done that. You learn once to keep this car pointed straight when getting on it. I just got lucky that time (seems like years ago).

Sorry about your car - really that just suc3s!
Note: In my SRT8 I can overpower my nannies, not sure if that would have saved you.

[gbatejan]

Same thing happened to me in my 98 RT. To this day I don't know what caused it, cold tires, too aggressive on the throttle, oil on the road, I just don't know. Sh!T happens. Obviously it was my fault in some manner but no matter how many times I replay it in my head I can't figure out what I did wrong. It happened very quickly, one second I was going straight the next I was going backwards and sideways over a curb and into a sign. Traction control may have prevented it, I think it would have helped. I know the many driving schools I attended didn't prevent it. Maybe it would have been worse had I not attended several multi day schools and tracked the car. Either way it went around in a heartbeat and once I was past 90 degrees I was along for the ride. My passenger was also unable to say what caused it. Fortunately no one was hurt and I didn't hit anyone else. So yes I think for the street, traction control is a help. I would still want to disable it though when I'm on the track.

[Cop Magnet]

Originally Posted by ferraritoviper

P/S: In my opinion, "Cop Magnet" had the best common sense response in favor of ESC, in the original thread, page 4.

Thanks. I'll wait out this thread with in the microwave.
How come I attract the attention of former Ferrari guys, newbies, the average enthusiast, the veterans, and the girls in the Chicks with Vipers thread in descending order? When all I want in life is the exact opposite?

Just busting your chops about the Ferrari thing! I suspect you nailed it on a shift to second to lay a little rubber? That's something all of us have done. The outcome is another story. You've experienced the snake-bite! Sorry to hear...

[cash84]

very simple to control, even at 30mph, LET OFF THE GAS once it starts to spin. Go do some Viper Days before doing anything on the streets.

[viperbilliam]

Originally Posted by Nine Ball

You lost control of a Viper at 30 mph? Hopefully it was raining. I'd be embarrassed to post that. Invest in a good performance driving school

So what would you have done? What do you do with a car that doesn't respond to the normal measures when tires start letting go? I suspect the tires and/or the street were cold but at this time of the year - probably tires weren't warmed up enough. I was luckier - three times. I've had the classes and other cars have responded when I corrected but my stock 05 didn't. The 09 is supposed to have a better limited slip function than the previous generation and probably does but is it as good as the Quaife? My Quaife will respond to the corrective measures I put in whereas the stock unit didn't. But I also make sure my tires are warm and the weather good before getting on it.

[CitySnake]

Agree with it or not, a great deal of the "allure" of owning a Viper is the fact that it's just not for everyone. It remains (perhaps slightly less with the newer generations) an unadulterated sports car, rather than it's main rival the Corvette, which is far more "hybrid" (common) in it's design and marketing.

It is the unforgiving nature of the Viper that adds to it's reputation. Hard to determine whether having stability control (as a driver controlled option or not) would have saved the thread's author. There's also the argument that without any "nannies", a Viper driver is far more focused on his/her driving...which would certainly be a good thing.

Speaking for myself, I am FAR more focused knowing that that my Viper does "bite" when I don't treat it right. I enjoy that "threat" as a driver. I also enjoy it's lack of compromise. In the end, despite the lack of sentiment, you knew what you were getting into when you bought a Viper. Enjoy it for what it IS rather than what it's not! ...or don't.

[AviP]

When you get another Viper, take it to an empty parking lot at night and practise donuts and shifting at 30mph. It does wonders for understanding the limits of your car without endangering anyone. And if you know the local cops, do tell them you want to try this so that they don't bust you for nothing. I hate traction control ever since I had 2 accidents related to it in my Supra Turbo many years ago. One was in the snow and other in the wet. The Supra had TC on by default and it had to disabled manually on demand. Traction control in high performance cars is NOT safe.

[Nine Ball]

Originally Posted by viperbilliam

So what would you have done? What do you do with a car that doesn't respond to the normal measures when tires start letting go?

Very simple solution here. You LIFT on the throttle when you lose traction. Rookies in high hp cars seem to forget that traction is a function of throttle, especially when they are involved in a race. Takes quite a bit of seat time in a sliding vehicle to know if you can pull it back straight again. I've seen dozens of guys crash their cars at the racetrack simply because they failed to lift the throttle once the tires broke loose.

Thousands of cars with traction control still wreck. It is the excessive power of the Viper that gets away from some people, not the lack of traction control. Unless it was wet or icy, this tends to be driver error.

[SquadX]

Ferraritoviper:
Please provide more detail. Were you switching lanes, wheel slightly turned......
I got bite in my first viper. rear stepped out on my and I tried to over correct and hit a curb with the driver side front. It all happened so quick. the car responded so quick and strong that from what I remember, I couldnt take my foot off the accelerator quick enough. i was also traveling around 30. The curb actually saved me from hitting cars in the opposite lane. I have a post on it from back in 2007.

[gbatejan]

When this happened to me in my 98 RT I did all the right things, steered in the direction I wanted to go, didn't stab the breaks, or abruptly lift the throttle, etc. I thought for a nano second that I was going to save it, but I didn't. On that particular day at that particular time that car had its sights set on trying to kill me.

Some of us, maybe quite a few, have had incidents where we lost or almost lost control of the car. Possibly on the road or on the track. Maybe you were going to fast for the turn, conditions, or your own skill level but either way things can happen very quickly, even more quickly in a Viper given its enormous power. However the aggressive nature of the car is one of the things that attracts me to it. I would say its the looks, performance, uniqueness, and this club in that order.

None the less I think that for many Viper owners or aspiring Viper owners, traction/stability control might have its benefits as long as it can be disabled for those that want it off. I, unlike our government, do not want to force anyone to use traction control if they don't want it but I can't see the harm in having it for those Viper owners that want it or need it because of their current skill level.

This whole thread may be moot in any event when the government mandates traction/stabilty control.

[Catwood]

Without further failure analysis as to what really happen we cannot prove, nor disprove that nammy controls would have helped. The only thing we do know that not getting behind the wheel that day would have prevented the crash. The ultimate nanny control is for the socialist governement to continue to decide what is best for me. Give them and inch and all your freedoms start disappearing. Let the free market decide if they want it...oh no, we can't. it's mandated in 2012. Watch out, governor is next.

[Vipermann1]

You lost control at 30mph???

I recommend a good Driving School!!!! (Traction Control isn't going to do much for you)

The Viper is a unadulterated sports car. Pure and simple raw power.

Thanks,
UZY

[fastmd]

Don't the 09 vipers come with PS2s? If you did this at 30mph on a 2nd-3rd shift you shouldn't be driving any car with over 50hp. Traction control is not the problem.

The problem is Driver Error!

[AviP]

Originally Posted by Nine Ball

Very simple solution here. You LIFT on the throttle when you lose traction. Rookies in high hp cars seem to forget that traction is a function of throttle, especially when they are involved in a race. Takes quite a bit of seat time in a sliding vehicle to know if you can pull it back straight again. I've seen dozens of guys crash their cars at the racetrack simply because they failed to lift the throttle once the tires broke loose.

I don't agree 100% with this. Lifting the throttle might unsettle the car and make a bad situation worse. It's on a case-by-case basis.

I was driving in heavy rain at 60mph when the back end hydroplaned completely and just wanted to swap ends. Had I lifted the throttle, it would have. Instead I stayed on the gas and counter-steered so rapidly and subconsciously that I totally felt I was in Formula1. The tires gripped with such a viscous bite that I could swear I hit the car in the next lane. Mind you, I was somewhere around 30 degrees off the straight line. All this happened in less than a second. I stopped to inspect whether I did hit anyone but there was no damage. To this day, that jolt when the tires bit in is vividly etched in my brain.

BTW, the hydroplaning was caused by tires that had almost become slicks. And since I don't race, I do attribute my subconscious counter-steering to practising donuts and slides in wet parking lots.

Originally Posted by Nine Ball

Thousands of cars with traction control still wreck. It is the excessive power of the Viper that gets away from some people, not the lack of traction control. Unless it was wet or icy, this tends to be driver error.

+1

[cash84]

Originally Posted by AviP

I don't agree 100% with this. Lifting the throttle might unsettle the car and make a bad situation worse. It's on a case-by-case basis.

You are right on certain areas. Coming out of a corner, I almost made a mistake by letting of the throttle too quick but instead, I started to learn that giving it more gas grips better. But on a striaght, let off the gas ASAP and the tires will grab traction. If let off too late....its too late

[gofastr]

It amazes me how many VCA members hate the idea of nanny options that can save your car or your life. Yet they have no problem with all the Nancy options such as a/c, stereo, ps, pb, pw, pdl, etc. Glad you walked away from the wreck and didn't hurt anyone else. ESC probably would have saved your car.

[anton28]

same Exact thing happend on my 99, twice in the last 2 years. I can definelty drive and control my car under andy condtion but there was no reason for the car to react the way it did. Who knows.......

[TAILWAG]

Originally Posted by AviP

I don't agree 100% with this. Lifting the throttle might unsettle the car and make a bad situation worse. It's on a case-by-case basis.

I was driving in heavy rain at 60mph when the back end hydroplaned completely and just wanted to swap ends. Had I lifted the throttle, it would have. Instead I stayed on the gas and counter-steered so rapidly and subconsciously that I totally felt I was in Formula1. The tires gripped with such a viscous bite that I could swear I hit the car in the next lane. Mind you, I was somewhere around 30 degrees off the straight line. All this happened in less than a second. I stopped to inspect whether I did hit anyone but there was no damage. To this day, that jolt when the tires bit in is vividly etched in my brain.

BTW, the hydroplaning was caused by tires that had almost become slicks. And since I don't race, I do attribute my subconscious counter-steering to practising donuts and slides in wet parking lots.


+1

At 30mph???????????????????

[Andrew/USPWR]

Glad to here your still here after that.

Would you recommend putting traction control on Hayabusa's?

Vipers are in the same league. IMO

They took the ABS off of the F1 cars this year and, everyone thought they'd be all over the track but after the first few practice laps and a couple of flat spotted tires, their runner faster times and know ones flat spotted a tyre sense.

It's what Vipers are all about that why no automatics either.

[AviP]

Originally Posted by TAILWAG

At 30mph???????????????????

Remember that the original poster did say he got on the accelerator aggressively. All I'm suggesting is that when he lost traction, his torque level was way up there and counter-steering might have got him out of out of trouble better than backing off and braking. And it might not. Braking surely didn't. But I don't really know how much room he had to play with. Or his skill level. We all know that the Viper's legendary torque is something else.

I'd also like to point out another thing I have seen in some drivers who drive with a very stiff grip. When they slam the gate and shift aggressively, their body transfers some of that movement into rotating the steering wheel. An aggressive 1-2 shift causes the steering to go right, while an aggressive 2-3 shift causes the steering to go left. That causes a clockwise spin for a 1-2 shift and an anti-clockwise spin for a 2-3 shift. I wonder if the original poster (RCK) would tell us which way he spun and if this might have been a factor.

Also, this time of the year there are a lot of leaves on the ground. A body shop friend of mine told me that he gets a lot more business in fall because of the leaves. Loss of traction is common and leads to guardrail incidents around corners, t-bone incidents at stop signs and good old rear-ending due to the reduced braking distance. Be safe and read the warning signs.

[Janni]

Originally Posted by gofastr

ESC probably would have saved your car.

So would've 200 less HP.....

[2000_Black_RT10]

Originally Posted by ferraritoviper

I read the recent 5 page thread on electronic stability control, and was absolutely amazed at the the vast amount of replies, that were adamantly against it! So amazed, that I felt a separate post in favor was necessary, based on my first hand experience this past Sunday....although I'm sure I'll be condemed in one form or another, certainly for lack of concentration and/or poor judgment, however **** happens!

When shifting into second at approx 30mph, I popped the accelerator a tad aggressively and went into an immediate violent 360 deg spin out crashing both sides of my 09 Viper, so damn fast...and with no time and/or room to react. Had there been someone walking a dog or riding a bike, etc., they would have been crushed. As it is the damaged estimate is $55K. With electronic stability control, this almost certainly would not have happened, assuming of course that the switch was on :-) If I'm not totalled out by insurance, guess what I'm having installed...beside PS2 tires? I left my machismo back in the bush a long time ago.

RCK

P/S: In my opinion, "Cop Magnet" had the best common sense response in favor of ESC, in the original thread, page 4.

It's unfortunate to read about the accident, glad nobody was hurt.

I have some basic questions.. (disregarding the actual event).

Did you buy the car new?
Did the dealership prepare you with any information regarding the unique performance attributes of a Viper?
Your id indicates you had a Ferrari, what year / model was it?

Many times people who purchase a Viper for the first time do not realize the amount of low rpm torque. I would also have to say that it can be irresponsible for a manufacturer to pass on a set of keys to a new car without proper awareness training of some sort, especially for a car like a Viper. It's unfortunate, but it happens, there are drivers who push the pedal too early. The VCA has been doing a great job warning first Viper owners of not getting bit, perhaps Chrysler should mandate a course provided or designed by the VCA.

Just a thought..

Regards,
Mike

[Catwood]

So would have not putting it on that day.

There is no proof traction control would have saved a thing...nothing, nada. That arguement is mute.

shoulda coulda woulda can be debated all day.

If you don't like the viper because it doesn't have TC, don't. If Dodge thinks that's a problem maybe they will add it. My decision to buy a Viper over a Z06 wasn't about TC. It wasn't even part of the thought. TC isn't the end all save all. Using your head is much more important.

[FEDBYVORTECH]

Originally Posted by Andrew/USPWR

Glad to here your still here after that.

Would you recommend putting traction control on Hayabusa's?

Vipers are in the same league. IMO

They took the ABS off of the F1 cars this year and, everyone thought they'd be all over the track but after the first few practice laps and a couple of flat spotted tires, their runner faster times and know ones flat spotted a tyre sense.

It's what Vipers are all about that why no automatics either.

The Busa comes with 3 different power settings.

[FastestBusaAround]

Only the 2008 and up, but Busa's are much wilder than Vipers, as are ZX14's (of which I am on my 2nd one now...) and only have 2 wheels...