VIPER DAYS...INSURANCE IN LIGHT OF GA COURT OF APPEALS RULING?

[HOGDEALER]

Is there any supplimental insurnace for Viper Days which will in fact cover my auto while participating in a driver education track event. In light of the recent GA court of appeals which most certainly will be given weight in favor of the gravy s##king insurace company's council to deny all claims arising out of such events. There must be some insurance company that will wright a binder. This is why I gave up being a lawyer. I think this whole train of thought is in violation of my 12 step recovery group.

Just some question from a "Recovering Lawyer".

 

[NCVCA]

This is certainly dependant upon your individual carrier... but...

Viper Days is a Driving School. IT IS NOT A RACE UNLESS YOU ARE IN VRL (Which you aren't).

My carrier WILL cover an "incident" while participating in a driving school. One of the keys is to sign in as a STUDENT.

Now I haven't ever had to make a claim under these circumstances, but track lore seems to be that most insurance companies will cover a driving school accident one time. After that you are on your own and shouldn't report it for fear of being dropped.

I called my isurance company and specifically asked the question and was told it WILL be covered.

Insuring a race car at a race may be possible, but I guarantee it will cost more than any reasonable person is willing (or able) to pay. Even cars available for rent at the track have a "tire and damage" clause that says the participant must pay for tire wear and any damage incurred.

Cars do get wrecked - it's a high speed event, but it is fortunately rather rare due to the quality of in car instruction, track selection, and classroom time provided by Viper Days staff.

 

[joe117]

When you called your insurance company to ask if you were covered, did you tell them enough about Viper Days? When you say "Viper Days is a driving school" to your insurance company, do you think they have the same thing in mind that you do? Unless you make sure your insurance company knows exactly what you are doing, you leave yourself open to a refused claim.

Where did the idea come from that a regular insurance policy is going to cover a high speed track event?

I don't think anyone should race anything they can't afford to damage or wreck on their own dime.

When you say "cars do get wrecked" "fortunately rather rare"
then why worry about coverage? I'll tell you why, because it's not rare at all. It doesn't happen to everyone but mile for mile it's probably hundreds of times more likely than on the highway and it's far from rare.

If insurance for a racecar on the track costs "more than any reasonable person is willing (or able) to pay" then what makes you think that your regular street insurance will cover it?

You guys are going to have to pay your way for the game you want to play. Pay for the coverage you need or race something you can afford. Sorry, but that's the truth.

 

[FRANK]

I was always under the impression that many car insurances like drag racing, autocross, etc etc will immediately "void" any insurance claims whatsoever. If I was an insurance agent and some guy in wrecked his Viper in a driving school program I'd laugh. First of all, if it is driving school, you should use their vehicles. Second, if it is a true driving school, use a crapy car or your housecar NOT an expensive car like a Viper. The insurace agent is gonna picture some guy hot-dogging on a track and lost control when in actuality he shouldn't be doing it in the first place...thinking who the hell does this stuff in everyday driving?

All said and done, 9 out of 10 times if you wreck your car in a sporting event you will get boned. Even if it wasn't your fault you will get screwed. Keep this in mind when autocrossing or drag racing when you lose control or some dude next to you loses a tie rod and your Viper gets whacked.

I remember a few years ago at the local strip a guy in a pro street Dayona lost it after hitting some oil on the track and went into my buddy's Dart. Guess what? The Dart was wrecked bad...and even though the other guy was at fault, my buddy suffered a loss of several thousand bucks. The other guy in the Daytona died...when you sign the dotted line at the track you are on your own from thee on in!

Now every time at the track I still think of the guy next to me and hope he steers clear of my lane...in case of an accident. Just my two cents...

 

[Steve-Indy]

Aware of ALL the referenced insurance concerns.

STRONGLY suggest that an individual not only contact his/her carrier (agent and actual underwriting COMPANY), lay out THE FACTS concerning "driving schools", and obtain a specific agreement of coverage from the COMPANY ...IN WRITING...as it applies to that specific event!!!! Remember that policies seem to be "tightening up"...so have these discussions BEFORE "green flag" time.

Having JUST renewed our policy (having spent nearly 2 hrs. going over policy coverage and EXCLUSIONS with my agent)...AND, after reviewing the final written policy, Wife and I are covered for Viper Days type driving schools. We will NEED to recheck this ANNUALLY at renewal time.

The goal is to become a SAFER Viper driver...and, believe it or not, SOME companies can appreciate the valve of same.

...just MY opinion as it relates to our Vipers and coverage

 

[kverges]

Put yourself in the insurance company's shoes. YOU don't want to go on track bearing the entire financial responsibility, and the insurer is likely to be concerned about exactly the same thing. I want to see a letter, from the CARRIER (not agent) saying that high speed driver's ed is covered. Some policies may not exclude it (I have personally been covered, much to my surprise), but I don't see any prudent carrier writing a letter saying anything but "we will abide by our policy at the time of a claim, if any."

 

[RockyTop]

INSURANCE IN LIGHT OF GA COURT OF APPEALS RULING?

The language of your policy will be dispositive of this issue. Read it BEFORE you buy it. Policies definitely differ. I have heard from several State Farm policy holders and they said that State Farm covered their track incident with darn few questions asked. The typical keys to coverage are (i) the instructional nature of the event, (ii) whether there is any timing of laps (timing is usually a bad thing - - though we informed the jury that it is often used to ensure that cars ar separated appropriately to lessen traffic), (iii) modification of the stock car (mods,. especially those that enhance performance) are viewed in a bad light, (iv) prior racing experience or racing school particpation (at least as to whether you are "in practice or praparation" to race, (v) the speed at the time of the incident, (vi) whether there is any evidence of one-upsmanship, bragging rights or informal racing within the otherwise instructional event, etc.

Now for my rant:

For you folk who have posted and e-mailed me expressing the "Adam Smith" view that this raises your policy premiums, creates cross-subsidies from good to bad drivers (and all that other Uncle Milty, right wing economic clap trap), consider that if you were flying around "at speed" in an empty parking lot at night or in the rain at your local mall and wrapped your snake around a light pole or, worse, hit another car or pedestrian, you WOULD be covered in all liklihood. The fact that an incident occurs on a closed track designed for high speed where you are driving with others of similar capability is much safer than the conditions created by teen or cell-phone jockey drivers who are frequently in a distracted state due to hormonal or telecommnunication influences ! This is simply a matter of contract and its construction. Appropriately, by law they are construed against the drafter of the policy. If you fall into this category of folk, make sure you read YOUR policy to ensure that you do not asccidentally help pay a portion of some crazy track driver's insurance - - but do so knowing that he or she is inherently subsidizing YOUR coverage for street driving through his or her better driving capapbilities gained at the track. I am sure you will send him or her a check in asppreciation for your windfall. NOT !

 

[pdmracing]

As an alternative,There is on track insurance available. Here is a copy of an email I recently recieved,by the way I have nothing to do with this company:


> American Collectors Insurance, which offers auto physical damage coverage
> for Driver's Ed events. Because it is now available in Georgia, I wanted
to
> contact you to give you some information about this coverage.
>
> Driver's Ed insurance provides auto physical damage coverage for on-track
> Driver's Ed events. The program provides a unique alternative to a
personal
> auto policy's comp and collision coverage. The major benefits of a
Driver's
> Ed policy include Agreed Value coverage and protection specifically
against
> losses arising from Driver's Education events.
>
> I am extremely interested in making your Driver's Ed participants aware of
> this coverage. I am contacting you both because of your involvement in
> Driver's Ed Coordinating, but if there is someone else I should be
> attempting to contact, please advise. Perhaps your club is already
> associated with an insurance agent that I could speak with about this
> coverage. Please visit our website
> http://www.americancollectorsins.com/driversed.htm or call toll-free for
> more information. We are located in New Jersey, and our hours are 8:30 -
> 4:30 EST.
>
> I look forward to hearing from you!
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Laura Bergan
> Marketing Department
> American Collectors Insurance
> 1-800-360-2277 Ext. 207

 

[1TONY1]

Re: INSURANCE IN LIGHT OF GA COURT OF APPEALS RULING?

Now for my rant:

For you folk who have posted and e-mailed me expressing the "Adam Smith" view that this raises your policy premiums,

I would just like to take this moment to thank everyone thats pays insurance for chipping in so that my wife could get a 911 after I totalled her BoxterS on a road course. If it makes you feel better I did have to cough up about $14,000 for medical expenses.

 

[joe117]

Re: INSURANCE IN LIGHT OF GA COURT OF APPEALS RULING?

Mr. RockyTop,
I hope you find an insurance company that will insure your car so you can keep on doing the track days events that you enjoy.

If an insurance company knowingly insures your car during high speed track events then good for you and good for your insurance company.

My posts above were not aimed at advising your insurance company to deny coverage for your activities.

I, and a few others posts, simply recommended that you level with your insurance company, not just your agent, about the kind of event you are participating in.

My own opinion is that most insurance companies would not want to cover a policy holder during high speed track events in a car like a Viper under a standard, drive to the grocery store, policy. I believe that in the past this coverage was provided because the insurance company did not fully understand what a "driving school" was.

As for being covered when wrecking a car while doing donuts in a WalMart parking lot. Well, if you told your insurance company what happened and what you were doing when you wrecked the car, I don't think you would be offered a renewal. In fact, if you told your insurance company that you planned to do donuts in a WalMart parking lot before you wrecked, you would probably not be offered a renewal. I think most insurance companies would say that you were not covered if you told them that you were going to a driving school where you plan to drive 130mph down the straight and 9/10s in control through the turns. Now remember, I'm not saying you can't find a policy for this. I just think a normal policy probably isn't meant to cover this.

 

[pdmracing]

Re: INSURANCE IN LIGHT OF GA COURT OF APPEALS RULING?

Nice to know it was a VCA memeber as the accident room MD!

 

[HOGDEALER]

Re: INSURANCE IN LIGHT OF GA COURT OF APPEALS RULING?

Per your posts my choices, as I see them, are as follows:

1.)DO NOT ATTEND any Viper Day events or other track events, park the Viper and look at it, go for a ride on the Harley.

2.)Contract with an Insurance Company (not Agent) under full discloser of exactly what happens at Viper Days. However, since I have never been to Viper Days I will just have to make assumptions. (Im thinking Lloyds of London)

3.)Assume responsiblity - Take my 2002 Final Edition GTS with 1000 miles on it and if it gets wrecked... "Life Will Go On."

4.)Purchase another Viper (01'w/ ABS) use it for track events. Purchase no insurance for it and run the s##t out of it. (this may be the funnest and cheapest in the long run)

5.)If i have a wreck, drag the dead carcass out to the freeway and then report the accident. (this is how pete became sneeky)(Was sneeky pete a lawyer before he became an Icon...just wondering).

I thank all of you for your input.

 

[Alternative]

Re: INSURANCE IN LIGHT OF GA COURT OF APPEALS RULING?

I thought one benefit of VCA membership was that you're covered during "Viper Days" driving school. Is this not true?

 

[joe117]

Re: INSURANCE IN LIGHT OF GA COURT OF APPEALS RULING?

HOGDEALER,
If you can swing the #4 choice, you will have so much more fun. There is nothing better than a real race car that you can drive ******* the track and not worry about every little scratch, or big bashes should that happen.
A real stripped out race car is much easier to work on. You can do things to make it do what you want on the track and not sweat how it will drive on the street. You will need a trailer and a truck to haul it.
If you would feel comfortable, investment wise, racing, and risking, an 01 Viper, do it. You will have a ball. That's what I think.

 

[NCVCA]

Re: INSURANCE IN LIGHT OF GA COURT OF APPEALS RULING?

JOE117

Please join me in the real world.

When you called your insurance company to ask if you were covered, did you tell them enough about Viper Days? =YES.

When you say "Viper Days is a driving school" to your insurance company, do you think they have the same thing in mind that you do? =YES.

Unless you make sure your insurance company knows exactly what you are doing, you leave yourself open to a refused claim. =Thanks. Never would have figured that lying wouldn't work.

Where did the idea come from that a regular insurance policy is going to cover a high speed track event? =From the Insurance company directly.

I don't think anyone should race anything they can't afford to damage or wreck on their own dime. =Your entitled to your opinion.

When you say "cars do get wrecked" "fortunately rather rare"
then why worry about coverage? = Because it can happen. duh.

I'll tell you why, because it's not rare at all. It doesn't happen to everyone but mile for mile it's probably hundreds of times more likely than on the highway and it's far from rare. = So, how many Track events have you been to?? How many track miles do you have?

If insurance for a racecar on the track costs "more than any reasonable person is willing (or able) to pay" then what makes you think that your regular street insurance will cover it? =We aren't racing - we are at driving school. Pay attention.

You guys are going to have to pay your way for the game you want to play. =Not true, insurance companies see the value of knowing how to drive a high performance car within it's limits.

Pay for the coverage you need =We do. or race something you can afford. =We do. Sorry, but that's the truth. =whatever.

 

[joe117]

Re: INSURANCE IN LIGHT OF GA COURT OF APPEALS RULING?

NCVCA,
Thanks for the the invitation to "Please join me in the real world". I think I'm already in the real world on this. In the real world, I think that most car enthusiasts would be amazed to hear that you expect to be covered if you wreck your car on the track.



You can try to make fun of me all you want with your comments. The FACT remains, you guys are the ones that are having trouble with coverage. All I was saying is, since this seems to be an area of question, to make sure that you have an ironclad agreement with your insurance company that covers you.

You said,
"insurance companies see the value of knowing how to drive a high performance car within it's limits."
They might see the value of driving school but I don't see why they would be interested in covering you while you learn how to drive a car like a Viper "to it's limits".
You are kidding yourself. If they knew what you were doing they wouldn't cover it. That, of course, is just my opinion.

Now, as for my racing experience, Well, I don't think it's going to impress you because it's not your kind of racing but I do have at least 1500 miles of race laps in three different stock cars. Probably twice that many miles of practice laps. I know, it isn't the same as road racing a Viper but it is VERY competitive, wheel to wheel racing. I built my own cars, my own engines, I organized a team and I won a division championship in 1992. Why I need racing experience to talk about your insurance problems, I don't know.

 

[NCVCA]

Re: INSURANCE IN LIGHT OF GA COURT OF APPEALS RULING?

joe117,

We are going to end up being buddies, but before the music starts...

I am impressed with your track experience. It's more than I have. My question to you would be this:

In all your track experience have you wrecked a car?? I'm hoping the answer is "no".

Are you a better driver from having had that experience? I'm hoping the answer is "yes".

If you haven't wrecked and if your a better driver aren't you a lesser risk to your insurance company for the experience? Wouldn't this be especially true if you drove that same car on the street from time to time?

On track incidents are rare reletively speaking - specific to Viper Days. The reason I asked about your racing experience was that of all the events I have gone to personally I have only seen 2 cars damaged and both were driver error (by their own estimation). Both were covered by their insurance.

I have heard of others (of course there are more than 2) but, this is the first denied claim I've heard about - ever. Which includes a guy who thought it was a good idea to tow the car out to a public street and get an accident report. Obviously not smart, the insurance company found out and STILL PAID THE ON TRACK CLAIM.

I don't understand how we or I are fooling ourselves here. Insurance companies, at least mine and all of those who have had track incidents up to this point paid the claim.

In the "real world" as I started before, these claims are being paid (except for this one which is pending). I guess I don't see why it's unreasonable to expect for it to be covered when the insurance company says they will cover it and then do when it happens...

 

[joe117]

Re: INSURANCE IN LIGHT OF GA COURT OF APPEALS RULING?

I hope we would already be buddies if we ever met some time....I think I hear the music too.

As far as wrecking a car on the track I would say no. Now the only reason I say that is because in order to wreck a stock car you really have to bust it up. The truth is, more than a few of the incidents I had would have simply destroyed the value of any street car. In a stock car you can brush the wall or swap paint with some other car and it isn't a big deal. New sheet metal is nothing. Bent parts get cut off and replacements welded back in their place. The car only has to look good from the grandstand.

Am I a better driver for having the track experience? Most of it doesn't exactly cross over to the street but all in all I'm better. One thing I noticed. If you spend some time really racing hard with a pack of other cars, you don't feel like you have to prove anything to anyone on the street.

A lesser risk to your insurance company for the experience?
Well, I guess you are right. If you can go fast safe you certainly can go slow even safer.
I'm not arguing that the high speed driving school isn't teaching safe driving. I'm just saying that 130mph and almost at the limit cornering, doesn't sound like something the insurance company is thinking of when they hear the words "driving school". Perhaps I'm wrong.

I don't think it's unreasonable for you guys to want to be covered during your driving school track time. I just wouldn't be surprised if they wouldn't cover that sort of thing.

 

[NCVCA]

Re: INSURANCE IN LIGHT OF GA COURT OF APPEALS RULING?

Strike up the band!! We agree.

Now let's just hope the State of Georgia comes around to our way of thinking.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Re: INSURANCE IN LIGHT OF GA COURT OF APPEALS RULING?

Have been reading ALL these related threads...It's REALLY very simple...some of our insurance companies cover safety courses and some don't...contact YOURS and get the answer in advance.

I personally believe the Viper Days Safety course to be very good...and so may some of the carriers when exposed to the course content, instruction, and presentation. Skip and Company strive to present a safe and enjoyable experience for all the drivers...starting with the basics such as the mechanical integrity of the car and its systems, which carries over to day-to-day driving awareness and safety.

Let's face it, Vipers are NOT in the low end of accident statsin in regular street usage...instruction via a safety course HAS to be a step UP ( !!!) in my opinion.

...but if one cannot get policy coverage on the track, one can consider an outside source at about $3000.00-4000.00 for a full 3 day event (as per last time I checked on this last summer).

OR, better still, in MY book, look into the "Arrive and Drive" program available at Viper Days as previously noted on this board.