Integrating a NOS progressive controller with a NX nitrous setup

[Snakester]

I think that I've ordered all of the bits to be able to adapt my NX N2O system into my 2000 R/T10.

I had the tank, pressure and WOT switches, solinoids, blanket, lines, Shark nozzle, and remote opener.

And I will soon have the second Shark nozzle, 2 sets of 41/26 jets (150 shot), 2 Y-splitters, 2 more short A/F lines.

And from the diagrams, and a recommendation, I ordered another solinoid for the progressive controller.

Is that right? And do I need another N2O short line to connect the additional solinoid?

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Plus I'm also curious just how the timer works.

The controller has three adjustments.

First is the Initial Power dial, which I figure that I'd set low (maybe 10%) which I suppose starts when I first hit WOT.

Next is the Time to Full Duty Cycle, which I figure is the span of time from first WOT to 100% nitrous flow (as determined by the jets).

Then there's the Fuel Offset, which I don't have an idea of what it does.
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The big question that I have is once you arm the system, and trigger the WOT switch, does the timer keep going? And what resets it?

Because say you are running a 1/4 mile, and want the N2O to not hit max power until mid second or even after you get traction in 3rd gear (5-8 seconds).

The problem is when you shift from 1st to 2nd you let off the throttle (at least I do) which would trigger the WOT switch to stop the N2O flow, until you hit WOT again. But does the second WOT trigger reset the timer (at 4 seconds) to start the timer over again, or it is only triggered once until it reaches 100% flow? (duty cycle).

Has anyone here used a progressive controller with their N2O setup? How well does it help with traction and stock tires?
I know that Kuhmos or the new BFG drag radials would be best for hooking up, but I'm going to try and use the Pilots and the N2O controller first.

Any known problems, or installation tips for the progressive controller in a NX N2O setup?
I read and printed out the great Viper NX install document recently posted, but it's a straight shot setup without the controller, so I'm trying to get the details to get my whole N2O system installed and running.

-Dean.

 

[Snakester]

Has nobody done this?

 

[BigCarrot]

I think it resets each time you turn it off, as in between gears.

 

[HP]

If I recall right it's like an egg timer, dial it for time 1 - 10sec
set it for onset and time to ramp up to 100%.
So the initial WOT switching begins the timer - NOS flows when it is switched
each time by WOT switch, but flows according to the preset progressive levels until the
time is up. So good for the 1/4mi, but not really adaptable or convenient
for other uses. NOS discontinued the progressive TPS sensor unit.
I think they get MSD to manufacture most of their electronics.

As far as electronics - anything that you can used with NOS, you can
used with NX. The basic nitrous wiring - is nothing more than a relay, that
can be controlled by the power and/or grounding sides of the switching circuit.

 

[HP]

The safety solenoid that goes with the controllers is just an expendable
unit that gives you the security of another valve - but will wear out eventually - that's why they offer rebuild kits.
If you didn't incorporate it, you would just wear your main solenoid out from
the pulsing required to modulate it. It is set in a series with the main
solenoid.

 

[Snakester]

Thanks for the info guys.

I think that it's a one-shot timer trigger from the initial WOT. If it restarted the timer every time you went WOT in each gear, it would never reach 100%.

What I might do is itegrate a switch that bypasses the progressive controller, for times when I'm not using the N20 from a stop.

I'm still not sure about using the extra solenoid, as there is the WOT control as well.

And I know that I should have a window switch, but they are a pain with the Viper one that you have to have MSD tweak.

-Dean.

 

[HP]

The main solenoid is controlled by the WOT switch -
Just order the MSD window switch - call MSD - they will tell you to send the
unit and $30 , it only take them about 7 to 10 days to convert it to a
2 cylinder unit. The unit does not come with plug in RPM chips, but
don't buy them, just bum some from other members.
You have to buy a set of chips for lower and upper RPM - you only use one
out of the pack, you could just as easy vary the set RPM by 100.

 

[Snakester]

I do have a window switch and pills (RPM chips) from my Corvette installation. But where do you order the 2 cyl MSD window switch? Plus I don't want to spend even more money (and time) for something I'm likely to only use a few times at the track.

-Dean.

 

[Snake Bitten]

Dean...Have you considered just running a delay??? (NX Express part)

I got one, and it's going in this weekend...Starting off with a 2 second delay...It's adjustable to whatever delay you want...Gonna try this on instead of a window switch...

 

[HP]

I do have a window switch and pills (RPM chips) from my Corvette installation. But where do you order the 2 cyl MSD window switch? Plus I don't want to spend even more money (and time) for something I'm likely to only use a few times at the track.

-Dean.

The MSD window relay - is set for 8 cylinders, and has instructions to
convert it to 6 or 4 cylinders. In order to use it on the Viper(-coil wire)
it has to be converted to 2 cylinders. MSD will do it for you. Just mail
it to them(plus $30). Their address(parts repair) is included in the
instructions with the unit.
Just make sure you order the MSD unit - The NOS brand unit won't work and
since NOS doesn't actually make their unit, they won't convert it.

The RPM settings usually are around 3,000 to 3,500 on & 4,500 to 5,000 off

 

[HP]

The cost of the MSD window switch isn't bad - around $75 plus a standard
relay about $8 -
especially if you can mooch a few RPM chips -
And the installation is simple.
Of all the electronic controls (other than the WOT switch) this
is a basic necessity- IMO
It protects you on each end of the RPM.

 

[Snakester]

Gerald,

That's actually what I was hoping to accomplish with the progressive controller, starting out with almost no nitrous flow, and ramping up as the speed increases. Potentially, it would help with both traction and reduce the chance of problems at low RPMs (intake N2O puddling/backfire).

Hugh,

Are you saying that MSD can modify their 8 cyl MSD window switch to 2 cylinder Viper mode?
I thought that they needed a special 2 cylinder model that they would mod for the Viper.
Because I already have my 8 cyl MSD window switch, from my last installation, and it would be a no-brainer to have MSD mod it if they could.

-Dean.

 

[Snake Bitten]

HP...Why didn't you just turn Dean onto Mike Brunton's shift light...Dual purpose shift light and window switch...

Dean...No doubt a controller will help...Just takes alot of tuning to get it dialed in...

 

[Snakester]

I was eagerly reading about Mike's shift light/window switch, but there were no more responses to the initial thread, so I thought that the idea to integrate it as a NX N2O trigger was scrapped.

That would of course be a better solution, if affordable.

-Dean.

 

[HP]

HP...Why didn't you just turn Dean onto Mike Brunton's shift light...Dual purpose shift light and window switch...

Dean...No doubt a controller will help...Just takes alot of tuning to get it dialed in...

I think the minimal power output would have been strained to operate a
relay. It's a shame though - Mike's control box is a versatile piece of work.
Now someone needs to make an RPM nitrous controller for the Viper - it would
sell.

 

[HP]

Hugh,

Are you saying that MSD can modify their 8 cyl MSD window switch to 2 cylinder Viper mode?
I thought that they needed a special 2 cylinder model that they would mod for the Viper.
Because I already have my 8 cyl MSD window switch, from my last installation, and it would be a no-brainer to have MSD mod it if they could.

-Dean.

Well I guess you're in luck, because they only make one RPM window unit,
and if you already have it, check on the MSD website and get the address to
send it to - make sure it's the parts repair address, which is different from
their regular address. * funny story, when I got mine back, there was
a repair bill, that I guess they forgot to take out - something around $5.00
So someone pockets the other $25 - but for the service I would have paid more than $30.

 

[Snake Bitten]

So said HP

I think the minimal power output would have been strained to operate a
relay. It's a shame though - Mike's control box is a versatile piece of work.
Now someone needs to make an RPM nitrous controller for the Viper - it would
sell.

Hugh...His new ones are 12V output...If I decide to use a window switch, that is what I will use...He is sending me the new style with the higher voltage...

 

[HP]

So said HP

I think the minimal power output would have been strained to operate a
relay. It's a shame though - Mike's control box is a versatile piece of work.
Now someone needs to make an RPM nitrous controller for the Viper - it would
sell.

Hugh...His new ones are 12V output...If I decide to use a window switch, that is what I will use...He is sending me the new style with the higher voltage...

I guess I'm just behind. I tried the 5volt control box, but it was questionable whether
it could switch the relay. I think Mike did offer to trade me out, but then
I got sidetracked. Well, I guess it's beside the point now.

 

[Jack B]

A couple of inputs.

Just to confirm, I have the MSD window switch converted to two cylinder. They do give a quick turn-around. I have the wiring install in my image gallery. You might want to also put a fuel pressure cutoff in series with the window switch.

The combination of the WOT switch, window switch and the fact that first hit of NOS is diluted because it is hot all combine to safely control and soften the initial impact of NOS, thus, making the need for a progressive controller questionable. This is also a good reason not to use the purge solenoid. You can actually see the initial heated NOS on a dyno chart. Your longest time in any gear is fourth and you don't need want the controller there. I wonder if tires are the answer not the controller -IMHO

 

[Snake Bitten]

Jack...what are your window switch set points???

 

[Snakester]

Well, I contacted the MSD support guy and shipped my RPM window switch off to MSD today to have it altered.
I had previously thought that I was going to have to buy another window switch, but if it's just a matter of altering the one I already have for around $30, it's a great deal.

Thanks for the info.

Jack,

Yeah, I remember seeing your Windows switch install pics. Very clean.

I already have the fuel pressure switch from my last install, so that will go in as well. The pills that I had in the window switch were 3000RPM and 5600RPM, and I'll probably use those same ones.

So with this setup what will probably happen from a stop will be that I'll feather the gas and roll onto full throttle, with the WOT/fuel switches triggering the progressive controller to start at say 10% flow (15hp shot) but nothing will happen until 3000RPM in first, when the window switch triggers the solenoid to flow N2O until 5600 RPM.
Then at second, I'm already past 3000RPM, so the solenoid is flowing, but the controller is limiting it to maybe 25% and it ramps up until it hits 5600RPM, or I shift to 3rd. Then 3rd engages at maybe around 66%/100HP (depending on the ramp set), ramps up to 100% (150HP), and finishes 3rd, and the car runs through 4th at that full power level.

I'm sure that Kuhmo or BFG drag tires (with Unitrax half-shafts) would eliminate the need for a progressive nitrous controller.

But this whole installation (already having the basic NX system from my last car) is costing under $500, and will probably be a better solution for me because my on-track time is far less than my on-street use (with my closest 1/4 mile track being about an 8-hour round trip drive away).

The nice part about nitrous, is that it's essentially invisible to your car when it's not being used (as opposed to turbo/supercharging or even a stroker motor).
So the car is under-stressed most of the time, until I need the extra power.

-Dean.

 

[MES]

So with this setup what will probably happen from a stop will be that I'll feather the gas and roll onto full throttle, with the WOT/fuel switches triggering the progressive controller to start at say 10% flow (15hp shot) but nothing will happen until 3000RPM in first, when the window switch triggers the solenoid to flow N2O until 5600 RPM.
Then at second, I'm already past 3000RPM, so the solenoid is flowing, but the controller is limiting it to maybe 25% and it ramps up until it hits 5600RPM, or I shift to 3rd. Then 3rd engages at maybe around 66%/100HP (depending on the ramp set), ramps up to 100% (150HP), and finishes 3rd, and the car runs through 4th at that full power level.

That's far too conservative. On a good track you'll be able to to 100% nitrous at 3,000 RPM's on stock sport tires with no wheel spin. The biggest problem is the 1-2 shift and the wheel spin caused by that. But once in 2nd your not going to spin the tires with a 150 shot. On the street you may or may not need the progressive controller in 1st gear, but in 2nd and higher you can go 100% without a problem. Send back the controller and save some $$ I think your over estimated what the 150 shot will do. I've been there, done that, with a 165rwhp (200 shot) JMHO

 

[Snakester]

Thanks for your experience MES.
I think that a lot depends on track prep, and our local tracks are poorly prepped most of the time. With 4.10 gears and a 100 shot in my last Corvette sometimes I spun in second at the track. And my Viper is making more power N/A than the Vette with N2O, and sometimes I spin in second on the street.

So I figure with roughly 150HP/150TQ+ (and my 3.55 gears) it could be a problem. Also I don't want to mangle the half shafts/U-joints, so I figure that the progressive controller is a small cost for a safety buffer.

If your real world experience bears out true for me, then I can just shorten the ramp-up to hit 100% in 2nd gear.

But who knows, I may get kicked off the track right away for doing 11s even before I get everything sorted out.

I'm going for the first time (with my Viper) to our "local" dragstrip next weekend and running N/A, so I'll get a chance to see how well the Viper grips on the street tires at the track then.

-Dean.