SRT on BBC Top Gear

[Guibo]

And while I'm on the subject of Lotus...It has a tiny 3.5 V8 and a ***** transmission.

But that V8 has twin turbos doesn't it...

According to the UK Telegraph review of the C6, the car had MSRC (they drove the same exact car as TopGear's).

Not sure the Stig will do so well with the Viper. Especially if his lap with the C6 was with the active handling on. Think 1:25.5 sounds about right. Cars like the Corvette, Viper, and Ford GT have a tough time on tight tracks which favor short gearing.

 

[Guibo]

if the viper had a 500hp V6- no one would buy it!
But its weight and bulk and the low technology design works agaisnt it when it comes to going around bends and mpg, emissions, etc.
But around here I see mostly imports at the autocrosses and mostly american iron at the strip. So maybe thats why the vettes and vipers work great here and not so well everywhere else.

But there's a very sound engineering principle behind the "bigger is better" principle. A 500hp V6 simply cannot compare in terms of throttle response and power throughout the rev range. So there's a very good reason no one would buy a V6 Viper, even if it had 500 hp.
The Viper's engine isn't all that heavy, about as heavy as a Porsche 911 Turbo's. Being a flat-6, the Porsche has the CoG advantage however. But then, it costs $38K, whereas the Viper V10 isn't anywear near that.
Autocross...the Z06 has done expceptionally well at various SCCA events around the country for the past 3 years. Not too many 400+ hp engines out there that weigh only ~400 lbs. Being a pushrod, it's also more compact and likely has a lower CoG than equivalent wet-sumped DOHC V8's. Emissions...The Z06 (and all Corvettes) are certified with no problems whatsoever in all 50 states, including the toughest one (California). I've seen a smog printout from a Z06 and it's not even borderline anything. FWIW, Vettes qualify as NLEV's due to their fuel economy ratings as well. Auto Motor und Sport tested head to head a C5, 996 Carrera, Jag KXR, and 360F1. Driven over the same roads under the same conditions, the C5 consumed 13.0L/100km. The 996 took 13.5, the XKR 15.2, and the Modena 17.2. That was a C5 with a 4-speed auto BTW.

 

[Autostream]

hey all good stuff guys. i was just making a broad statement, not neccessarily about the C6. The other guy was talking about the new Viper. And someone else was saying how the europeans are somewhat biased. my point is how american are different and we like our cars different.
Our tv shows like carnanddrivertv and motortrend dont even have a track. they do a slalom sometimes but thats it.
So if you only care about time slips, american cars in general really shine. But if you only care about lap times, it gets more complicated

I think Clarkson said it best himself in his review of the new C6

Clarkson on C6, "America has never really made a sports car, because while we were hanging it out to dry on Welsh moorland roads, or Alpine passes, they were racing between the lights on Telegraph Road. And for that, you don’t need a pin-sharp turn-in. You need muscle."

 

[onerareviper]

hey all good stuff guys. i was just making a broad statement, not neccessarily about the C6. The other guy was talking about the new Viper. And someone else was saying how the europeans are somewhat biased. my point is how american are different and we like our cars different.
Our tv shows like carnanddrivertv and motortrend dont even have a track. they do a slalom sometimes but thats it.
So if you only care about time slips, american cars in general really shine. But if you only care about lap times, it gets more complicated

I think Clarkson said it best himself in his review of the new C6

Clarkson on C6, "America has never really made a sports car, because while we were hanging it out to dry on Welsh moorland roads, or Alpine passes, they were racing between the lights on Telegraph Road. And for that, you don’t need a pin-sharp turn-in. You need muscle."

Dude, GIVE IT UP! Lap times... Lap times? Are you kidding me? The Z06 and Viper are two of THE BEST cars under $250,000 on a road course. Look at the One Lap of America winners the past 5 years. Look what cars are at the top of grassroots racing across the USA. Look at the cars that come out on top in non-biased test? THE ONLY CAR that could hang with the Viper and Z06 under $110,000 is the Porsche GT3. If you honestly think a stock EVO is right with them on a road course, you need to seek immediate help. It may be within a few seconds per lap, but that is not close IMO. You are living in a magazine fantasy world or a rice dreamland.

P.S. - As for the Corvette, it was not a Z06. Big difference. No one is going to buy a base Vette (whatever suspension) for lap times, they are going to buy a Z06. If the Stig ever did a legit lap using the Z06 or Viper, they would be at (or near) the top of that list. Will that ever happen? I doubt it. But fortunately I don't believe in biased reviews. I see firsthand what cars are dominating at track across the good 'ole USA. And the best lap times I've seen are performed by Vipers, Z06's, and Porsche GT2 and GT3's.

 

[Autostream]

One lap of america? what a joke!
this thread is about how the Viper and Vette does around a track compared to the rest of world.
OLOA is where people can enter any kind of car they want, completely modify them ANY way they want as long as its street legal, turbo, s/c, motor swap, whatever. Any amateur schmoe who have been to 2 driving schools are permitted to drive. Its basically, like all forms of sport: he with the most money wins.

Thats apples and oranges compared to one professional test driver who sole job it to provide consistent lap times on the same track with completly stock cars as they come out of the factory.

As for the Evo, It can generate almost 1g in the bends which is more than the Vette. Of course I may respect the Evo, but I wouldnt want to be seen in one.

BTW, the 20mpg city figure for the new vette is a joke. It NEEDS that stupid 1-4 skip-shift to achieve that, where those other cars are fuel efficient all on their own.

 

[Autostream]

Allanlambo:
here is where the lotus fits in. to be honest i dont know if any are in the wet, but will verify that later.

BMW M3 - 1.31.8
Nissan 350Z - 1.31.8
Mazda RX8 - 1.31.8
Ford Focus RS - 1.32.2
Lotus Esprit V8 - 1.32.5
Audi TT V6 - 1.32.7
MG ZT - 1.33
Noble - 1.33.1
Mercedes SL 55 AMG - 1.33.2

The Lotus was a great car in its day, able to rival ferrari at half its price. It was good looking too. Though the tranny is from france and i hear its terrible enough to ruin the whole package. But they almost went bankrupt too many times and was never given enough development $ to keep it modern. Thats why i compared it to the NSX.
Fortunately we get a new NSX next year. Whereas Lotus seems to be concerned only with their money making elise/wx220's and exige's.
:-(

 

[fluffy]

As for the Evo, It can generate almost 1g in the bends which is more than the Vette.

Wrong. The Z06 has generated >1.0g in several tests. The base C6 Corvette does 0.95g compared to, as far as I can find, 0.94 for the Evo.

BTW, the 20mpg city figure for the new vette is a joke.

Wrong. I owned a Pontiac Trans Am for God's sake (far heavier than the 'vette, same engine), drove the [******] out of it and still made 23-24mpg overall with mixed driving, 18mpg when stuck in the city (1-4 skip shift disabled).

 

[GR8_ASP]

Autostream. I do not know why you are here as your mind is already made up regarding both the vette and the Viper. Your statements that the US has never produced a true sports car are just pure bunk.

And if you think no one else in the world can test sports cars except the British then you are even more full of it. I am not sure that you are aware but the US actually has road courses, road races and lots of other performance venues for cars beyond dragstrips. But trying to tell you that would not be worth the time and effort as you already have your mind made up.

 

[SylvanSRT]

dont forget Panoz, Vector, Saleen, Cunningham, Kurtis, Callaway, Vettes , Vipers, Cobras, GT40 and at least a few others i know i must be forgetting. they must be right there aren't any great American sportscars, most of these cars had great success on the road and track(except the Vector, although it had a top speed record for a street car for a while)

 

[repete]

im amazed how the American strait line cars dominated the GT class in LeMans....puh

 

[allanlambo]

Here is the Top Gear Esprit vid:
http://www.espritfactfile.com/videos/topgear/TopGear1.wmv

 

[Autostream]

R&T got .97 for the fq300 evo, the fq340 is lighter and suspension improvements so one could guess it to be better.

You can talk about race cars all you want, but they are modified usually, no expense spared. This thread is about the car YOU will buy.

If the EPA didnt use 2nd and 3rd gear either testing the 'high technology' M3, it would have lower fuel consumption figures too. The 'skip-shift' is a trick GM and Chrysler uses to meet federal CAFE laws. If the vette didnt have a minimum number (of mpgs) they wouldnt be allowed to sell it. So its not like they're obsessed with the enviroment or your wallet, they are forced to.

Ron:
I'm here to respond to whifs of ignorance. (Fortunately people here are mature. At fantasycars.com those boys are saying since the power to weight ratio of the NSX is 'worse' than the C6, top gear must be lying because they dont like America OR that richard is a bad driver.) And mainly to defend what I think is honest journalism. I know it hurts the egos of people when they see the car they own and love being trashed on tv. So reaction is to say 'they' are wrong.
What does clarkson know? he has driven every car ever made in his time and experience is what counts here. I've been following clarkson since the early nineties when his fro was bigger than justin guarini's. And I sincerely believe he is honest. Yes ,nothing he loves more than when a british car kicks ass. But he will be first to admit that the DB7 is a piece of junk (build quality wise). And that the Range Rover has been matched technically by the Lexus land cruiser.
The corvette didnt do fantastic in their review, but he does admit that he 'loves it' for what it is. Being american, I really wish it did do better.
As you can tell i dont exactly love the vette or viper. But I do LOVE the ford gt. Because the gt is the first real american supercar for one, and the first sports car thats built not by accountants. They didnt cut any corners anywhere. They didnt use oldmobile door handles or chevy astro antennas(as on the C5) to cut corners.
As a result, I will have to win the lottery if I ever want to own one. Oh well. At least I can respect it. c'est la vie

 

[Guibo]

A Z06 will corner every bit as hard as an Evo, and then some. Here's a R&T test back in '02, with a Z06 (before the upgraded shocks available for '04):
http://img46.exs.cx/img46/8804/Grip.th.jpg
Cornering g's indeed favors the Z06. That was a Euro-spec Evo BTW. FWIW Auto Motor und Sport shows similar numbers. In their standard curve (at the Hockenheim club circuit), the Evo VIII pulled 1.15g. In the same corner, the Euro-spec Commemorative Edition C5 (not a Z06) pulled 1.2g. Toss some runflats on the Evo, and let's see how well it does. Overall lap times at Hockenheim:
Evo VIII - 1:17.2
C5 Comm Ed - 1:15.9
Z06 (tested '00) - 1:14.9

Regarding EPA numbers...the Corvette can pull off a 1-4 shift because in most driving situations, it's got so much torque compared to most cars (and as a result, more than enough hp for most drivers) it can get away with it. Try the same thing in, say, a Honda S2000. Don't think so. Even with the Honda's gearing advantage, I think it'd be bucking like crazy on the verge of stalling. Big cubes means big torque (and as a result, more hp throughout the rev range), and in some cars with enough of it (and with a low enough weight), the 1st three gears can be pretty much regarded as redundant at sub-60 mph traffic speeds.
In any event, how does that explain the C5's superior economy against the 996, XKR, and 360 Modena? As far as I know, there is no 1-4 skipshift feature in automatic Corvettes. I could be wrong though.

Regarding bias...what else is there to say when one team of commentators whines about the excessively heavy clutch of the C6, or its terrible shift action, when another team of journalists (Telegraph) drove the very same exact car and mentioned its shifting action was "fingertip light"? R&T noted the C6's clutch was almost too light, and that the Corvette stood a good chance of losing some character in this regard. Are R&T staffers superhuman athletes? Don't think so.
Hammond admitted his problems/inability in dealing with the Corvette's controls, yet he was the one allowed to drive it in the "dragrace." Wonder if the Stig would have that much trouble. But then again, who was driving the NSX? We'll never know. Unless TopGear switched drivers to account for driver skill, this is more about entertainment than it is about journalism with an ounce of integrity; which is probably the point of the show. Otherwise, we should all believe that in a dragrace between an NSX and a C6 (with drivers of equal skill), the NSX will win. Hardly believable when practically every test ever done between an NSX and a C5 Corvette has the NSX beating the C5 off the line (as in the TopGear video), but by the end of the quarter it's the Corvette that's ahead (unlike in the TopGear video). Or, should we accept that the C6 is slower than the C5? Not bloody likely.

Ford GT...fantastic car. But don't kid yourself. Every car is built (to some degree) by accountants. Ford GT included. I'm sure you're aware that some of the British mags have taken it to task for its cheap-feeling toggle switches, the plastic-like feel of its magnesium center console, and its Focus-sourced tilt-steering mechanism. If it didn't have accountants to answer to, I'm sure Ford would've tried a carbon-fiber monocoque like all of the other supercar manufacturers.

 

[Snakester]

Autostream,

This is actually the damage that is done by Top Gear's poor reporting. They propagate every myth about American cars (cheap manufacture, poor quality materials, bad gas mileage, outdated technology, and poor handling), and people like you just eat it up, unquestioningly.

Sure they are expert drivers, but personal bias colors everything that they review. It's not that they are lying, it's how they mix the facts with their opinions, and stereotypical myths about American performance cars.

Since you are aligned with their thinking mostly, it's clear why you see their comments as unbiased. But my guess is that you have never owned a Corvette or a Viper before, let alone taken either one on a circuit racetrack.

Contrary to detractors who regularly call cars like the Corvette and Viper "musclecars" and suitable only for drag racing, in reality both the Corvette and Viper were primarily designed for going around corners fast (even more than drag racing). The independent suspension, 50/50 weight balance and other key design elements are actually terrible for drag racing. But they are great for circuit track racing. It's a byproduct of having a lot of HP that the Corvette and Viper do well in the 1/4 mile, but both cars were designed for balanced performance.

The problem with most European reviewers is that do not question that design goal in a Porsche, or a Ferrari, but they are cleary astonished to see balanced performance in an American car, and they frankly cannot come to terms with the idea because their minds have been so clouded for decades about what they expect American performance cars to be.

The Ford GT has obviously made inroads to disspell these notions, and the new C6 Corvette (followed in a year by the C6 Z06) and the SRT10 Viper (followed shortly by the new Coupe model) should help reshape their opinions, but I'm not holding my breath.

I consider the reviews for Top Gear, at about the same level as Nürburgring track times. It's interesting to see a different perspective, but seeing that they are often consistantly below the performance that's achived in dozens of American comparative tests that don't run in the rain, or test different cars with different drivers/weather/track conditions, and call it comparative. I just take those numbers and judgements as extra information, and clearly less accurate.

 

[Autostream]

The one thing I love about TopGear is that there opinions arent affected by sponsors. Because they dont have any. They think Americans are strange because we have commercials. They are right becuase it affects the shows we watch- can show a can of coke on tv, cuz then pepsi might not sponsor them, as example.
I was watching a show on the speed channel last month about the chrysler 300c and it seemed like it was an ad or infomercial the way they were going on about it. All the motoring programs here almost never say anything bad about any car. Its impossible that every car these days is perfect. Then i see the same car on top gear and they will rant and rave. So its obvious that topgear is one of the most HONEST car programs out there and they arent afraid to point out deficiencies. That's why i respect the whole show. If richard complains about the clutch and gearbox, I doubt hes making it up. All cars have weak points and thats his job to find out.

The bottom line is that the car really did well in there test. All cars have flaws. Just because they have complaints, doesnt mean its a bad car.
For the money, it did remarkably well. All the other car in the drag race are MORE money than it. Theres no shame in losing to a *** car that cost DOUBLE!

p.s.
those evo/vette handling specs are the wrong models. should be:
2004 EVO VIII FQ-320MR
2005 Corvette C6 Z51

 

[Snakester]

This doesn't have to do with honesty, or advertising, or driving expertise/experience. It has to do with personal bias. Do the Ferrari 360cs and Porsche GT3 have rough riding suspensions? Sure they do. It goes hand in hand with better handling (to a point) but Top Gear concentrated on their percieved problems with the C6 Corvette, and they don't do that on their favorite cars. That's their bias.

Sure some American car reviews are equally biased (especially on TV) with only glowing praise for the cars, but I take those reviews with the same skeptical view as I do British auto magazines.

And losing in a drag race against the NSX is very telling. I could believe it with the standard C6 Corvette, but not with the Z51 package, unless they left the traction control and A/C on. In which case they don't know how to get the most out of the car.

Plus unless there was something wrong with the particular Corvette that they tested, the shifter on the C6 is a breeze. The C5 shifter was fine, and the new one in notably improved with a new mechanism for more direct, shorter shifts. So either they got a dud car, or they were just looking for things to complain about.

Which is my take on their C6 review. They were looking for things to complain about. And hopefully they will do better with the SRT-10 Viper.

 

[onerareviper]

One lap of america? what a joke!
this thread is about how the Viper and Vette does around a track compared to the rest of world.
OLOA is where people can enter any kind of car they want, completely modify them ANY way they want as long as its street legal, turbo, s/c, motor swap, whatever. Any amateur schmoe who have been to 2 driving schools are permitted to drive. Its basically, like all forms of sport: he with the most money wins.

Thats apples and oranges compared to one professional test driver who sole job it to provide consistent lap times on the same track with completly stock cars as they come out of the factory.

As for the Evo, It can generate almost 1g in the bends which is more than the Vette. Of course I may respect the Evo, but I wouldnt want to be seen in one.

BTW, the 20mpg city figure for the new vette is a joke. It NEEDS that stupid 1-4 skip-shift to achieve that, where those other cars are fuel efficient all on their own.

I'll give you the One Lap point (about drivers), although many cars are kept stock and models that participate ARE from all over the World. On the other hand, YOU base your opinion on 1.) TV Shows 2.) Magazines 3.) Cars that are not even sold in the US (Special spec EVO'S ). Reality is at the track, my friend. Not the 1/4 mile, but tracks like Mid-Ohio (2.5 mile road course), etc... And I have seen it TIME AND TIME again, the best times by production cars (not modified or only slightly) are not by EVO or STI's (not even in the same ballpark), not Ferrari's (excluding F40, F50, Enzo)(never seen one raced seriously), not Lambo's (although I've only seen a few race, so no real data exist in my mind), not NSX's, not Supra's, etc... The Z06, Viper, and Porsche GT2/GT3 are always at, or near the top.

Here's an example: Top Gear usually speaks highly of Ferrari, and how fast they are around the track. But I routinely watched stock Gen II GTS smoke Ferrari 355 and 360's at the track at FERRARI EVENTS (that the VCA is invited to).

Bottom line: Mine opinions are based on events I can touch, see, or participate in.... Not magazines or TV mumbo-jumbo.

 

[quickysrt]

why wouldnt the srt beat the ford gt? weighs less more torque wider front rubber all weather tires (incase of rain on track)etc...

 

[Autostream]

Let me just clarify two things:
the ferrari challenge stradale and the porsche gt3 are special 'track' models from the manufacturer. Different class. Different league. They're expected and supposed to be stiff and hard riding since they're basically race cars and not meant as a daily driver like the C6. No radio, no a/c, factory roll cage, etc. so they are again, apples and oranges.

And the Evo VIII FQ-340MR is coming/here to US

Other than that, opinions are like A-holes- everyone's got'em and they all stink

 

[allanlambo]

One lap of america? what a joke!
this thread is about how the Viper and Vette does around a track compared to the rest of world.
OLOA is where people can enter any kind of car they want, completely modify them ANY way they want as long as its street legal, turbo, s/c, motor swap, whatever. Any amateur schmoe who have been to 2 driving schools are permitted to drive. Its basically, like all forms of sport: he with the most money wins.

Thats apples and oranges compared to one professional test driver who sole job it to provide consistent lap times on the same track with completly stock cars as they come out of the factory.

As for the Evo, It can generate almost 1g in the bends which is more than the Vette. Of course I may respect the Evo, but I wouldnt want to be seen in one.

BTW, the 20mpg city figure for the new vette is a joke. It NEEDS that stupid 1-4 skip-shift to achieve that, where those other cars are fuel efficient all on their own.

I'll give you the One Lap point (about drivers), although many cars are kept stock and models that participate ARE from all over the World. On the other hand, YOU base your opinion on 1.) TV Shows 2.) Magazines 3.) Cars that are not even sold in the US (Special spec EVO'S ). Reality is at the track, my friend. Not the 1/4 mile, but tracks like Mid-Ohio (2.5 mile road course), etc... And I have seen it TIME AND TIME again, the best times by production cars (not modified or only slightly) are not by EVO or STI's (not even in the same ballpark), not Ferrari's (excluding F40, F50, Enzo)(never seen one raced seriously), not Lambo's (although I've only seen a few race, so no real data exist in my mind), not NSX's, not Supra's, etc... The Z06, Viper, and Porsche GT2/GT3 are always at, or near the top.

Here's an example: Top Gear usually speaks highly of Ferrari, and how fast they are around the track. But I routinely watched stock Gen II GTS smoke Ferrari 355 and 360's at the track at FERRARI EVENTS (that the VCA is invited to).

Bottom line: Mine opinions are based on events I can touch, see, or participate in.... Not magazines or TV mumbo-jumbo.

I follow the ONe Lap pretty closely. The cars that win, are all HIGHLY modified. As for the Lambos, in 1998, an SV just like mine was entered, bone stock came in 2nd, just behind a Mosler race car. Almost took first.

A couple years back, Karl troy piloted an early bone stock Vt to a 10th place finish. About 2 years ago, he came back in a Diablo Sv-r but had an accident, which threw out his alignment, and brake bias.

As for a Ferrari 355 and a Viper gts, i have no doubt a gts would beat a 355 on everything but a very slow, curvy track.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

I guess it is my turn , but surprisingly I am somewhat astounded by folks who quote what a show/magazine wrote or discussed, but fail to listen to their friends or compatriots who spend time on the track. The One Lap of America has been won numerous times by cars that were not highly modified and it has been only in the last years that the Winners were going great guns. It has not been so many years back that Ron Adee won in a lightly modified GTS, and the event was won two years by two Michelin Drivers in a well prepared ( but not highly modded ) ACR. The idea was to be fast and to last , from track to track, so this is an endurance event. Needless to say, the question of track time and the ability to wing it around a road course seems quite simple to answer. Having instructed for SCCA, Viper Days, Porsche Club, Corvette Club, to name a few, it always amazes me and others what Vipers and Vettes do on the track. The current SRT-10 will corner at 1g, stop in less than 100 ft from 60 mph, and has a relatively inexpensive rendition running in the World Challenge Series and doing well against cars that are 2-4 times the price. This car that Autostream suggests is not quite there, is confident enough of it's stopping power that the racecar ( Comp Coupe ) based on the SRT-10 ,runs the same brake system and stops with the best of them. If American sportscars will not handle with Europes's best then why has was the most dominant GT in FIA history been a Chrysler Viper - it does have the best consecutive win record of all makes including the wonderful Porsche. Today, we have another GT doing convincingly well , called a Corvette. Guess we can go around corners, but for stock cars, the two will hand many more expensive cars thier lunch. Ask the boys from around Chicago about the Viper/Ferrari Wars that were run for around 8 years - seems the winner was easy to remember, as it was always a V10 Snake. There are tons of cool cars in the world, and many are a blast to drive, but the Viper is like dating a gorgeous blonde , only to find out she also has a brain --- it may take more of a man to handle her, but it is worth every minute, every single minute!

 

[allanlambo]

Im sorry Bill but i disagree. Last years One lap was won by a very much modified 996TT. These cars may not all be 1000hp, twin supercharged etc, but they all have engine,brake,suspension mods.

A couple of years ago, the Viper that won was driven by guys having to do with Viper development, dont rememebr exactly what, but i spoke with Karl Troy, an entrant in the One Lap, who informed me they were running a 550hp V10.

All of these cars perform substantially better than regular production cars.

When the Diablo Sv came in second, it lost to Mosler that didnt even belong on the street.

 

[Vic]

I just sat in a C6, and spent some time feeling up the controls and interior finishes. After calming down from my excitement, I have to report the interior matrials feel firm and well attached, with no gaps or cracks between different pieces, nothing crooked, and in short it seeemed VERY well done. I don't know how anyone can find fault with that aspect. Either that, or I'm easily impressed and have no discernment? Nah, the interior is just well done.

 

[Guibo]

All the motoring programs here almost never say anything bad about any car. If richard complains about the clutch and gearbox, I doubt hes making it up. All cars have weak points and thats his job to find out.

It just means that it was tough for him. And why would you take his word over anyone else's (like the Telegraph's for example)? Like you said, everyone has an opinion. But apparently his can smell only like roses.
I mean, they ******* about the ride of the C6, yet made no mention of the fact that you can drive 100 miles with a completely flat tire if you had to. They likened its suspension to that of a horse-drawn cart or chariot, but didn't mention the benefits of leaf spring suspension, about which you can read more about here:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=evogen&Number=642711&page=&view=&sb=&o=
Last I heard, midieval carts didn't have aluminum double wishbones either...

Theres no shame in losing to a *** car that cost DOUBLE!

Again, evidence that you're taking the test too seriously. If you think a C6 will lose to an NSX, you might want to review known tests between various NSX's and C5's, whether they're head to head or not. The results are largely the same. Just for kicks, compare C&D's test numbers for the C6 against their numbers for the lightweight version of the NSX in the States, the Zanardi Edition. And then compare the C6 times against those of the best NSX available and tested in Europe, the NSX-R. I think you'll find that your high esteem for TopGear as a medium for journalism, rather than entertainment, will change.

p.s.
those evo/vette handling specs are the wrong models. should be:
2004 EVO VIII FQ-320MR
2005 Corvette C6 Z51

Right, but I was addressing the comment:
"So if you only care about time slips, american cars in general really shine. But if you only care about lap times, it gets more complicated."
The jist of which implies that no distinction's to be made between American cars like the Corvette/Viper compared to, say, a '60s muscle car. Clearly there's a huge disparity in handling dynamics here.
The Evo VIII FQ-320MR is a very track-oriented car. Should be compared with the Z06, also a very track-oriented car. Unless you want to equip the C6 with similar performance (non-runflat) tires like the Evo has. Don't suppose there's a difference in grip between these two, do you?:

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

 

[onerareviper]

And the Evo VIII FQ-340MR is coming/here to US

When? I assume the 340 refers to HP (I could be wrong). The 2005 EVO MR will only produce 276 HP, and even that's not out yet. BTW, this car will cost around $35,000 and produce low 13's in the 1/4 at low 100's MPH. Not exactly a bargain at this price, but I will admit a base EVO RS at invoice is a heck of a deal at $25,176 (if you can get one for that price). MSRP is $26,799. Although now you have to look at that fugly thing....

 

[onerareviper]

Allan,

Just to p*ss you off, I leave this quote from the man that RUNS the One Lap of America. The creator. Senior Editor of Car & Driver - Brock Yates. Inventor of the 'Cannonball Run'. I truly feel he has forgot more than all of us know about the potential of production automobiles.

Quote: (Sept. 2002 Car & Driver)
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Although several other car magazines would have you believe that Ferraris and Lamborghinis are the ne plus ultra of fast road cars, a look at the results of both these events (OLOA and Super Car Challange) reveals that the potency of those exotics is seriously overhyped. Not one of them appeared for the Supercar Challenge, and not a single Ferrari in the nearly two-decade history of One Lap has ever finished in the top 25. This year, a well-prepared, well-driven Lamborghini Diablo struggled to finish 10th, mainly because boulevard-style brakes were not up to the task of hauling down the 3600-pound cruiser for slow corners. Said the owner after the finish, 'We brought a jackknife to a gun fight.'

By the way, I've got $5000 on the table that says there isn't a Ferrari in the world that can finish in the top three at the 2003 One Lap of America.

Truth be known, the marques that consistently do well in the high-speed games that you'll read about in these pages are Corvettes, Vipers, Porsches, and BMWs. Year in and year out, they're the major players, and all the swooning about Italian iron fades away when the party gets rough. I know this is heresy: Italian cars look great on Rodeo Drive and parked in front of the Hôtel de Paris in Monaco, but when it comes to a hard-core street fight, they're as soft as mozzarella in the Tuscan sun. And that goes for the gold-chain wankers in the Ferrari Challenge—the only people they can beat are one another.

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Ouch!!!

 

[allanlambo]

I know he said that. I also know the owner he is referring to, who is Karl Troy. He brought a BONE STOCK early model Vt to the One lap, and lost to 800hp Supras and modified Vettes and Vipers. He did say the weakest link was the brakes, and felt he would have done much better had he not of had to brake so early.

Here is the Diablo SV im reffering to, which also bone stock, finished 2nd:
http://www.onelapofamerica.com/History/1999/OneLap1999.htm

Ill tell you from my own experience, early model Diablo brakes ****!

 

[SnakeBitten]

Allan I remember a bone stock Viper GTS beating the field...Here the link...Read em and weep Autostream...

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=105&STORY=/www/story/05-30-2000/0001230748

 

[Torquemonster]

hahah that quote from the OneLapofAmerica head was funny.

Actually the lightweight Ferrari's can post very good lap times, but they do not like drag racing very much, and they tend to self destruct at monotonous regularity in endurance events - I remember one particular 360 race car going onto its 4th (I kid you not) engine to keep it on the track in a 24 hour event... but when that failed Ferrari was out of the race.... that particular 24 hour race was won by a newly debuted Monaro (older brother to the GTO) with an untried 427 small block making over 700hp - it completed all testing, qualifying then racing on the same American based/Australian developed V8. It won over a highly modified Porsche by several laps

 

[Torquemonster]

Problem is these days with high technology, you dont need a huge heavy V8 to make 400hp.

Fortunately the LS2 in the corvette is an extremely light, compact engine, as are all the Chevy OHV V8s. The LS6 for example weighs 355 lbs bare (497lbs fully dressed), which is only about 70lbs more than the 2.0 liter F20C in the s2000, and 35 lbs less than the I6 in the BMW M3. And considering that the LS1 is a popular swap into Miatas and FD RX7s... well, it's not exactly a large engine. In fact it's an extraordinarily small engine... the LS2 has less weight and bulk than pretty much any DOHC engine on the market, so I don't know exactly why you are saying the opposite.

But its weight and bulk and the low technology design works agaisnt it when it comes to going around bends and mpg, emissions, etc.

The low technology, high displacement design improves mpg. The LS2 Corvette gets 30mpg on the highway and 20 in the city, and that's more than I can say for, say, the Ferrari 360 or anything else I can think of in that power range... the "high tech" 333hp BMW M3 for example only gets 23mpg on the highway and 16 in the city.

good post Fluffy - it is about time the European and British auto media took note and stopped bagging the US for producing big OHV engines - when reality is the US engines are smaller, lighter and more torquey than their high tech ***, UK, and European counterparts.... the only thing BIGGER on a US OHV V8 is the cubic capacity.

It takes a lot of room to have quad cams, and there is no power gain in them without variable cam timing, which adds more complexity and weight. Their real power advantage per cubic inch is in multi- valves - and that is only from mid-range up - so they rpm higher. A 4 valve will not make bottom end like 2V OHV does.

FWIW - a 632 cubic inch aluminum Mopar V8 (hemi or wedge) will weigh substantially less and take up less space (especially the wedge) than a 4.6 32V Ford V8. So lets see - what would you rather install?

280 cubic inch vs 632 that is smaller and lighter

gee - hard choice