I Want My MIS ( **** /Water Injection System)

00prowler

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Roe Water Methanol Injection System. It sounds cool just to say you have it, even if it didnt do anything. This would be a great time of year to get it, sounds like I might even be able to install myself...Hurry up Sean :) :)
 

Qualitywires.com

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even if you didn't buy the Roe set up and bought one for yourself, it's not hard to set up. Just got to get the right nozzles and pressure right. I wouldn't recommend windshield washer fluid...some of it has detergents that may clog the nozzles up. I use pure water/ **** mix.
 
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00prowler

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Ab, How long does a tank of the mix last under normal driving? Wear is methanol purchased? Thanks...00PROWLER
 

Qualitywires.com

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**** has about a shelf life of about 8-9 months. Do not expose the **** to sunlight and store in a dark cool place. With my 1 quart bottle, I can get maybe about 15-18 runs. It also depends on nozzle size and when you have it kick in. I have a map that controls the amount injected at certain PSI's and the strength referenced upon boost.

I have a snow performance set up I bought about a year ago. The only thing I would have a concern about is the pump he is using. It's a chemical rated 220 psi pump, but not quite sure if it's made for ****. **** is very corrosive and the pump from what I understand is not really made for ****. I know there are pumps out there that works off some kind of magnet and not a diaphram...that's suppose to be better. But anyways...the snow performance pump has worked so far. It's about the size of a starter.
 

BlueGTS

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ab, What % is your water / **** mix? Do you have any concerns about the corrosion in the heads / TB's / Blower? I know I am getting it but I wish I could use straight water.
 

ViperRichRT10

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I talked to someone on Saturday that is having the system installed this week on his car by Sean Roe. I guess it must be available now!
 

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I use about a 50% mix right now. You could use straight water if you wanted to, but **** has some cooling propeties that work great. As far as corrosion goes, as long as you mist it or atomize it correctly, you won't have any issues to worry about. By the time it gets into your heads, it should have evaporated and "soaked" up a lot of the heat in the engine that may cause your engine to knock. When the heat from your engine evaporates the water/****...it takes energy to do so. The heat will lower the cylinder temps to allow you to run more timing for more power. **** is not really a fuel source in this instance since it's such a minute amount of it being injected. It does add octane but not much.It's there more for cooling. I inject my water/**** in about 5 psi and go up from there. The snow performance pump has a allen head screw to adjust the pressure of the pump. Just remember you adjust that pump, it will push more fluid through the nozzle. make sure you get the right size nozzles...if you don't then you take the chance of not enough being sent in or too much which will cause your cylinder to be dreched which will cause misfire, washdown or backfiring.

You can pick up **** pretty cheap...look for gocart racing supply stores..they will usually carry it. **** is the best alcohol to mix with water. You could use some other alcohols, but they don't come near ****.
 

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I would also consider the use of straight Propane on boost also. Doesn't have the same cooling effect, but it has tons of octane real cheap. I was going to go with that system, but didn't want to have a bottle in the back.
 

Simms

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Per Sean Roe,
"Without going into a lot of detail about testing, suffice it to say that it provides a very noticeable improvement in the power and makes the car even more fun to drive. We did all our testing on the runways here, and then went on the dyno to verify the results. On the dyno, our peak numbers went from 667 RWHP to 702, while torque went from 697 to 722. At low RPM’s, the torque gain is very good. We picked up 76 RWTQ and 31 RWHP at 2,200 RPM, which is really easy to feel when driving on the street.

This will allow ALL the people with our blower kits to increase their timing, and / or boost, including the cast piston cars. The people running the lower boost pulleys and 91 octane will probably gain the most benefit, as they can increase the boost to 6.5 and run more timing advance. The additional benefit on the cast piston cars will be keeping the top of the piston cooler, which helps make it more stable and stronger."

"Here are the drivetrain specs on the shop 1996 GTS:
93 octane pump gas, standard SC kit with 2.5" pulley yielding 9 psi boost (we call it a 10 lb pulley, but the better the engine flows, the lower the boost), 1.7 roller rockers, our cylinder heads (chambers left larger to reduce compression to approximately 9.1), B&B 1&3/4" headers, high flow cats, B&B cat-back, 70 mm throttle bodies, stock airbox punched to 3" outlet, S&B air filters, aluminum flywheel, stock bottom end - clutch - trans - diff and fuel pump (with voltage booster). Other than the heads, it's a pretty standard set of mods. With stock heads, the torque would be the same to slightly higher, but with less high RPM HP.
The tune with the water / methanol was done while driving, then verified on the dyno. The tune and boost pressure were not "to the max" as this was a street test and tune project, where you could get far more aggressive on race gas.

For price, I think we'll probably end up in the $400 area.

To prototype the water / methanol kit, we started with an upgraded kit from Snow Performance. In the end, the difference will be that the kit has been reworked to be Viper specific, with a proper sized reservoir, correct sized nozzles, wiring harness and installation instructions. It will be controlled by the VEC2 and will come with a recommended tuning setup. Basically, we're doing the R&D and leg work to make this an easy install for people who have a Roe Supercharger on their car, so they can get more power and enjoyment out of their mods without spending much."

The nice thing is see is guys can run a 10lb pulley (forged piston cars) with the water/**** kit and not have to upgrade their fuel system if they don't want to (beyond the voltage booster). So must be slightly adding a small shot of fuel rather than just cooling. Tony Armour has a similar setup as well running a 10lb pulley with water/****.
 
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00prowler

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Thanks guys, It sounds like it will need a refill at least once a day. I heard Sean may be using a larger tank for reducing the amount of refills....thanks...00PROWLER...
 

STUGOTS

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Thanks guys, It sounds like it will need a refill at least once a day. I heard Sean may be using a larger tank for reducing the amount of refills....thanks...00PROWLER...

that would be really cool less refills less hassle.
 

Bob D

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I use a 50% water/**** mix on mine. This is my 2nd favorite performance mod I've done, right after the supercharger of course. I went from a 7 lb to a 10 lb pully without doing anything to the fuel system and picked up 56rwhp and 62tq for a total of 668/726. This is with stock heads and 91 octane.

Bob
 

BlueGTS

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In talking with the helpful people at Roe they will be offering an indicator light as an option. I believe one of the biggest differences to users is that their system uses a much bigger reservoir than the Snow kit.

Bob D, Those numbers are great! I assume you have 1.7's and headers to get those numbers? I ordered an 8psi pulley but from what you saying, with the injection I could go to 10psi? How do you know you are not detonating?
 

Bob D

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Aaron, I do have 1.7's and Edlebrock headers which are a little more restrictive than some others.I would like to dyno the 7/8 lb pully to see what the difference is. I know the stock heads are a bottleneck because sometimes I'll see 11 lb boost and as Sean says with good flow he only gets 9 lb on the same pully.
For detecting detonation I made stethoscope with parts from Radio Shack. The instructions are on www.autospeed.com
I couldn't find the amplifier they suggest so found another one at RS. You just clip the microphones on the block and use headphones and you can hear everything. Kinda crude but better than nothing.

Bob
 
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00prowler

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OK, Lets say the new Roe kit uses say a 1 gallon reservoir,has the proper size nozzles, will that last a day of average driving hammering on it from time to time? It sounds like you dont want to run out with the timing advances,thats why I ask. I really dont want to do any roadside maintainence,but dont mind a refill before going out for the day...00PROWLER
 

1TONY1

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One gallon doesn't last very long on mine.

I will disagree with ab on a few points too:

If you have a 50/50 mix and are injecting very much....there is a bit of difference in the a/f. At idle if I turn mine on and off quickly ..... less than 1 second, the a/f will swing from 15-1 to richer than 12-1.

Also in reference to cooling.....don't assume methonal is better than water at cooling.....according to Aquamist:



We compared the heat removal capabilities of various common
liquids during evaporation. Water has the highest latent heat of
evaporation, making it the ideal liquid for in-cylinder cooling and
detonation supression. We included the specific heat content of
each liquid and again water comes top on the list. Specific heat
mainly affects the intercooling property which is why on high power
engines, water could be used for reducing inlet air temperature.
Heat power is calculated based on the figures shown on the table
below. Heat power is in BHP and KW units making it easier to relate
to engine power output. According to the calculations, at an injection
rate of 150ml/minute, water extracts almost 8 BHP equivalent
of heat energy during evaporation and this is six times more effective
than gasoline.



2837wtr-meth_compare-med.jpg
 
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00prowler

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One gallon doesn't last very long on mine.

Tony, How long is not very long? Are you also saying you are better off using water only without methanol, or a different mixing ratio...00PROWLER :confused:
 

1TONY1

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That all depends on what flow you have. Sean (I think) is doing a bigger tank than one gallon. I will see if I can find a chart on recommended flow amounts....you will be surprised.


I'm not saying on the wtr vs ****. That is straight from the Aquamist website......I was thinking the cooling effect was better with methonal....then I read that. I won't take it as 100% until I hear from other sources. When you need more fuel, that is where the methonal is a must. Our stock fuel system is lacking. I always complained about having neon sized fuel line. LOL, Well, a few weeks back I learned that our fuel filter is the same filter that goes on a 1992 V6 minivan.

Everybody does need to be aware...especially creampuffs....if you run out of wtr or wtr/mth and don't catch it very quick, it's likely there will be damage done.


Interesting story: After I did my injection, we put the same stuff (my own version of injection) on Mike Robbins diesel motorhome. We had just increased power and in a hard pull (or in a big hurry) there were some EGT issues. We hooked into the fresh water tank.....40+ gallons. It only came on above 22 psi (max boost was 26psi) We could run the tank dry in 300 miles :)
 

ViperRichRT10

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I always complained about having neon sized fuel line. LOL, Well, a few weeks back I learned that our fuel filter is the same filter that goes on a 1992 V6 minivan.

I would be the owner of that "new" V6 minivan fuel filter!
 

Bob D

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After installing my injection I checked the flow to see if it was the recommended rate just by spraying into a container for 15 seconds and adjusted the pump pressure to
make the suggested 850ml per minute. At this flow my 7 quart tank lasts almost 8 minutes of boost which isn't bad but I think I'll get Sean's bigger tank when available.
 

Viper23

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Just a question, but where will the tank be for the injection?
 

KenH

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Everybody does need to be aware...especially creampuffs....if you run out of wtr or wtr/mth and don't catch it very quick, it's likely there will be damage done.
If there will be an indicator light to show a low level on the tank, seems like that same input into the VEC2 could be used to modify the timing to a safe level.
 

Torquemonster

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Great to see people trying this very good technology. When I talked about this here 2 years ago a lot of people pooh poohed it.... good on you guys for finding out the benefits for yourselves.

For those thinking about DYI setups - forget the old days. The water must be atomized properly and that requires over 100psi pressure for a start. If you can't achieve that don't waste your time.

also using distilled water will reduce the chances of a blocked jet from chemical build up.

re water methanol mix.... as a coolant - trust Aquamist... they not only supply the worlds top rally teams (manufacturers team cars) they also supplied Bently Turbo packages for Bently - they know what works. The 50/50 ratio is well proven over 50 years. Some go to 60/40 but any improvement will likely be in your mind.

Of course if you inject so much methanol it starts to act as a fuel not just an intercooler - then you'll pick up power - but you'll need to injecta lot and then your whole tune will have to be adjusted significantly to suit....

In a street situation on a Viper you should not use a lot of water because the car can't be driven on enough boost to require water injection for very long or you'll either run out of road or get caught trying. In a race situation - at higher rpms you can run 25% water as fuel by weight or more..... ww2 tests ran up to 50%, but most people prefer a conservative 10% because of the old problems of hydraulicing and corrosion.. two problems that only exist with improper atomisation and improper calibration.... even at 25% there should be no risk of either on a proper modern high pressure system.

Another benefit of water is that when cold water turns to steam - it expands several times (5 x if I recall) - and that has to be good if it does that at TDC or just after ;-)

This is really a must have for Roe SC cars - it's cheap, it's effective, you get in cylinder cooling - which is far better than intercooling remotely - and you only need water. Methanol is not needed at all - for racing it might help but any gains would be small, the only practical reason to add any would be to prevent water from freezing in winter.

Power gains over 50hp from water are common - it's all in the tune and the more boost the more you can gain from it on pump gas.

I'd run at least a 2 gal tank, 5 gal if I road raced multi laps. Just get into the habit of adding water every gas fill up... pretty simple.
 

KenH

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Torquemonster,
It would be nice not to have to worry about methanol, especially on long trips. Pretty much everything I have read touts using methanol along with the water. Can you provide any basis as to why you don't think the methanol is of any value? Even at a 50/50 ratio, doesn't the methanol provide an octane boost that you wouldn't get with water alone?
 

1TONY1

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For those thinking about DYI setups - forget the old days. The water must be atomized properly and that requires over 100psi pressure for a start. If you can't achieve that don't waste your time.

Don't discount the DIY setups please. It's all in the nozzle/s and pressure...can that not be done DIY ???? Wait, I already know the answer, thanks.
 

Nadine UK GTS

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It is my understanding that methanol will only help cool the intake air temp, as by the time it gets into the cylinders it has already evaporated! The water evaporates in-cylinder, it is right here in the cylinders where you want the most effect in reducing temps, to reduce detonation. Now obviously cool intake air is good, and I want that too, but in my system to a point, not at the cost of substituting the amount of in-cylinder water cooling, by running as much methanol as water. Based on Aquamists research I run 20% methanol in the system with distilled water. I do not however use my WI system as a fuel eg octane booster, purely only as a cooling means. If I want to raise octane levels or richen mixtures, I'll do this by VEC2 tuning means and race gas in the tank.

In reply to the question about concerns re the corrosive properties of methanol with aluminum, eg the motor, I was concerned about this, simply put it was explained to me the methanol will pass by evaporated, and when the WI system is not activated (off boost) warm air / fuel will sweep by behind it, so methanol will never be allowed to linger to start any corrosion worries. It would only be a concern if the system were to be activated and shoot some in there when the motors not running! The reservoir tank and WI system pump and components need to be able to take the methanol though. My tank and lines are plastic, fittings valves etc are stainless steel. Hope this helps.
 

Sean Roe

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Hi Everyone,
Good discussion.
Here's some insight into what we're going to have available on the shelf in mid-February.
We sized the water / **** injection nozzles to flow 15% of the flow of the ten fuel injectors.
We sized the reservoir to the same percentage of the stock fuel tank, giving us a 2.8 gallon reservoir.
We're able to get the reservoir in the right rear corner of the GTS, with all but a couple inches and the filler under trim panel.
With this setup (nozzle and tank size), if you were to run at full throttle under boost, starting with a full tank of fuel and water / ****, both tanks would run dry at the same time. However, in the real world, expect that the water reservoir to last at least two tanks of fuel and probably more as the system will not be on very much relative to the fuel injectors running all the time at cruise and idle.
Regarding water or water / **** mix, the benefit we see is the ability to run more timing advance. You could consider the methanol as an aid to the factory fuel system if you were running short on pump at high HP levels (we're still using the stock fuel pump, lines and filter with a voltage booster running the water / **** mix). I don't see any problem using distilled water and no methanol for most situations, even on my own car.
With the size of the nozzles we're using, we didn't see much difference in the air / fuel ratio. It got a little richer, but not to the point where it decreased power. So, changes to the VEC2 program will primarily be to reduce / eliminate the timing retard (we're going to suggest leaving in about 1-2 degrees retard from stock advance in the 2000 RPM range).
At the end of a couple gear pull, the blower and tubes are cold to the touch, where they were engine temperature before.
The VEC2 controls the pump voltage. We're starting the pump just before the vacuum hits zero so we can get ahead of the boost some. The voltage ramps up and increases to 100% by 2000 RPM (it's fully adjustable with the standard VEC2 software).
The pump is Snow's higher pressure pump, putting out about 180-200 psi according to our pressure test.
We've installed one pre-production kit on a local car to make sure our measurements were and tuning correct. Pictures were taken for the installation manual and I'll start writing it soon.
There's also an LED for showing when the system activates (installs in a center vent) and a micro momentary switch primer button.
The kit will be introduced at $379.95, which I think is well in line with the costs and other kit prices. It will include full technical and tuning support from us as well.
I hope everyone enjoys the power improvements it will allow.
Regards,
Sean
 

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