Roe S/C with Belanger headers VS B&B headers: Graph inside

[David Weaver]

I put the Roe on this car and I knew it was down on power for the combination the car is running. The car had Belanger headers on it when I did the install. I was of the opinion that the headers were causing the low numbers. I finally convinced the owner to put on some B&B's and here are the results. No change in the VEC tune, NO other changes. Run 1 is a cool run and run 3 is a hot run (I lost RPM on run 2 so I cured that and ran the car again). I will retune today and hopefully see more gains.

DW

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[David Weaver]

OK, I linked it to the a l l e y, odd it worked in the preview screen but will not show the image in the post. I don't have anywhere to host it so I would be happy to email it to someone. Basically, it picked up 38 power and 70 torque!

DW

 

[DSR207]

I have B&B headers would love to have that proof...I'll send U a PM, email it and I will post it for U

 

[KenH]

That's a huge difference all across the RPM range! Did the A/F stay the same between the runs? Also, what other mods are on the car besides the headers and SC?

 

[BigCarrot]

Yeah, I didn't see much gain at all from Belangers on my car. I know lots of folks are Belanger believers, but I'd definitely go with B&B, [******], or TNT headers.

 

[KenH]

For some reason, I can't get the image to show up, but here is a link to David's dyno graph to make it a little easier to find.

http://gallery.viperclub.org/showphoto.php/photo/13928/size/big/sort/1/cat/500

 

[Schulmann]

So Run 1 is with Belanger headers and Run 2 is with B& B headers. Am I right ?

 

[DSR207]

You must be registered for see images

 

[David Weaver]

So Run 1 is with Belanger headers and Run 2 is with B& B headers. Am I right ?

Correct!

 

[99 R/T 10]

Is this with the water/**** kit installed also?

 

[David Weaver]

Is this with the water/**** kit installed also?

No water/**** on this car, yet. It is a built motor (ex creampuff, ported heads, 97 cam, all the goodies). 8 lbs of boost. The B&B's did make it slightly leaner on the top end.

DW

 

[Silver Snake]

Excellent! This is very good information. I currently looking for a complete exhaust setup and was pretty sure I wanted B&B. Now I know for sure, especially since there is a Roe S/C in the future plans too.

Thank you!

 

[RoadKing]

The real question is.......what time is going to be ready tonight?

 

[David Weaver]

The real question is.......what time is going to be ready tonight?

Depends on how big of a bottle of whiskey you bring me!!!! I will call you this evening.

DW

 

[ViperBing]

Can you speculate why the B&B's put down so much more HP and TQ?

 

[PhoenixGTS]

Can you speculate why the B&B's put down so much more HP and TQ?

I can. Something happen during the header swap that caused the PCM to behave differently on the second runs. Perhaps depowering the PCM erased codes, or perhaps a sensor was re-plugged in or code got erased.

 

[David Weaver]

Can you speculate why the B&B's put down so much more HP and TQ?

I can. Something happen during the header swap that caused the PCM to behave differently on the second runs. Perhaps depowering the PCM erased codes, or perhaps a sensor was re-plugged in or code got erased.

I made it a point NOT to unplug the battery or do anything else that would change ANYTHING else on the car. I had to know if this was why this car was low on power. I even plugged up the DRB and noted all adaptive memory cell numbers as well as all other operational parameters before the install and verified that nothing changed after the install. I did the dyno runs at the same temperature reading on the DRB. The B&B run was run #3 and the car was actually a little warmer than the Belanger run (#1). I forgot to hook up the RPM lead on run #2. The car actually has a fault in it for the oxygen sensor, it is still there. I will put new oxygen sensors in it tonight.

As far as speculation, my opinion is that this engine, which is 510 CID, could not exhale well enough through the headers. The boost pressure actually dropped 1/2 pound after the install. In addition, I also built this exact combination on another car that makes 738 HP, with TNT headers, the only difference in the two cars. I even put that VEC program in this car when it had the Belanger's and it STILL wouldn't make any more than 650 HP. My speculation is the Belanger's don't flow well enough for a large cubic inch, forced induction car.

DW

 

[Simms]

Maybe the Belanger design (that collector system) restricts flow on forced induction cars.

OOPS, DW beat me to it.

 

[PhoenixGTS]

I made it a point NOT to unplug the battery or do anything else that would change ANYTHING else on the car. . . .

Great Answer, especially with the comment about the reduced boost and that you have a big-inch engine. Sounds like perhaps a low power normally aspirated car like mine might do better with the Belangers whereas you boost guys moving lots of air can benefit from the open collector (and do not have to worry about a flat spot further down in the power band since boost is making so much torque).

 

[Bo knows]

What was the tube diameter on the Belangers ? Can we get any input from Lou Belanger ? I plan on installing headers soon & this is valuable information. Thanks.

Bo

 

[carl B]

perhaps we should remove the bullet in the collector?

Carl

 

[PhoenixGTS]

perhaps we should remove the bullet in the collector?

Carl

Jerry Belanger's (Lou's father) official name for those structures that take up space in the collectors is "pickle."

P.S. Asking Lou for comments will not be productive. Trust me.

 

[STUGOTS]

perhaps we should remove the bullet in the collector?

Carl

Jerry Belenager's (Lou's father) official name for those structures that take up space in the collectors is "pickle."

P.S. Asking Lou for comments will not be productive. Trust me.

not very helpful?

 

[PhoenixGTS]

not very helpful?

Lou always "tries" to be very helpful. Let's just say he is not a fluid dynamics engineer and leave it at that.

 

[STUGOTS]

got cha

 

[Hostile]

One small observation on 2 cyl.engins we use AR cones for NA but
the cones are bad for forced induction.

Skeeter

 

[Joel]

Interesting stuff here. I think the pickles look restrictive, but Lou assured me that on an NA motor they made more power. I have also had this confirmed by Dan Cragin. However they may be restrictive once really big slugs of gas start moving. The Belangers look to be excellent quality with good bends and junctions. Dont the BB headers have pickles too. I have seen one which I was assured was BB which had a rather cruder form of pickle.

 

[KenH]

I think both B&B and Belanger are 1 3/4" tube with 3" collectors. Belanger touts their 'D' shaped exhaust port that matches up with the cylinder head, not sure about the B&B. Only major difference that I am aware of is the pickle on the Belanger. I remember hearing that it is suppose to improve low end torque. It would be interesting to try to remove the pickle and see if that makes much difference on the high end. I don't remember how permanent that feature was on the headers (e.g. is it a viable mod for those upgrading to a blower?).

The 1/2lb drop in boost sure sounds pretty conclusive that the headers were a restriction.

I should add that the Belanger is a 3-2-1 vs 5-1 type collector on the B&B as well.

 

[radta7]

I think the pickle is restrictive on high boost cars. As stated above the belangers could not mover enough air.

RD

 

[Shelby3]

So, can one de-pickle the Belangers?