Spark plug recomendations?

LETHAL GTS

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What are you guys using(please include the plug number)?
I heard of guys using Bosch etc.
I'm doing some work on my beast over the next two days and I have to pull the plugs. So I'm going to put new ones in.
 

Jack B

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The viper doesn't ike a lot of plugs, there is almost always a trade-off when going away from the oem's. The NGK FR5-1 plugs are the same heat range, but, don't have the severe extended tip,
 

Jeff Lemke

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The Viper wizard told me only to use factory plugs as the car does not like all of those fancy plugs out there. Short life (10,000 miles) but best performance.

Jeff
 

Schulmann

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Yes the best for the stock Viper is the stock Champion plug.
However I like a lot NGK FR5-1 too.

On my supercharged viper I use NGK FR5.
 

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I concur. For a close to stock engine, stock is best. Stock is RC12LYC Champion. However, you may want to consider going to the RC12ECC, which is the SRT-10 OEM plug. Identical to the LYC other than it is a double copper, Vs. a single copper. They use different resistor types too, but that doesnt matter. The copper ground electrode on the ECC will conduct heat away faster than the Steel one in the LYC.

If you are planning on any type of mods such as a VEC-2 or S/C or NOS, contact me for the RC10ECC. Identical to the RC12ECC, but 2 heat ranges colder. These plugs are VERY hard to find, I currently have 2 sets hot off the press from Champion that should be here late next week or the week after. Dont bother looking for them elsewhere, I looked high and low, and only found one supplier- which I emptied out to meet my current needs. They are about twice the cost of the standard 12 heat range, due to low production numbers... still reasonable compared to some of the other plugs out there!
 

99 R/T 10

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I concur. For a close to stock engine, stock is best. Stock is RC12LYC Champion. However, you may want to consider going to the RC12ECC, which is the SRT-10 OEM plug. Identical to the LYC other than it is a double copper, Vs. a single copper. They use different resistor types too, but that doesnt matter. The copper ground electrode on the ECC will conduct heat away faster than the Steel one in the LYC.

If you are planning on any type of mods such as a VEC-2 or S/C or NOS, contact me for the RC10ECC. Identical to the RC12ECC, but 2 heat ranges colder. These plugs are VERY hard to find, I currently have 2 sets hot off the press from Champion that should be here late next week or the week after. Dont bother looking for them elsewhere, I looked high and low, and only found one supplier- which I emptied out to meet my current needs. They are about twice the cost of the standard 12 heat range, due to low production numbers... still reasonable compared to some of the other plugs out there!

What if you only want to go one heat colder? Is the a 11 in the mix? I've heard too many bad things about going 2 steps colder. One works great for me. I've also seen in the Hot rod mags that a platnum plug will give you a bump in HP at the top of the RPM range because the spark stays and doesn't get "blown out" as they put it. :2tu:
 

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What if you only want to go one heat colder? Is the a 11 in the mix? I've heard too many bad things about going 2 steps colder. One works great for me. I've also seen in the Hot rod mags that a platnum plug will give you a bump in HP at the top of the RPM range because the spark stays and doesn't get "blown out" as they put it. :2tu:

There is no RC11***, so no, a single CHAMPION heat range colder is not possible in the OEM style plug. However, you have to consider this: NO two manufacturers "heat ranges" are exactly same. Your single heat range in whatever plugs you use is not actually 1 heat range colder than stock, since there is no direct comparison between manufacturers. Since these plugs are by the same manufacturer as OEM, you know that these plugs are EXACTLY 140-200 (70-100 C/heat range) degrees C colder than the OEM plugs.

The OEM Projected Tip type plug, available in correct heat ranges ONLY by Champion, does not need to be a very hot plug to keep from fouling. That is, in part, the purpose of the projected tip. When exposed further in the combusion chamber, it reaches self-cleaning temp much faster than a standard plug, and keeps it in that range even at slow speeds. I have PERSONALLY tested this with these plugs, on my own SRT-10. With the RC10ECC, I installed them, and let the car idle for one HOUR, and shut off- no drive time. No fouling. The next test was about a 45 minute highway drive, 5-6 gear, very little accelleration. Again, no fouling. The Viper's have no problems running these plugs. These tests were with Stock settings- modded cars burn even hotter, they should have no problems. (Same tests done on a 6.5 PSI Roe S/C car I now have running these plugs- flawless)

On a side note, I caught your comment about Platinum Tip Plugs. That does not make sense because Platinum plugs actually have the worst burn characteristics of all plug types. Platinum is used because of how long it lasts, not its conductive properties. Iridium is better than Platinum because of its marginally better conductive characteristics, as well as its extreme hardness and breakdown resistance- fine wires help strengthen the spark in comparison with Platinum and Pallidium finewires. In reality, the most power can generally be made with Copper plugs, though they do need to be changed much more often that the other plug types. (Skip White has a lot of insight into this, the Engine Building Shop his family owns always uses Copper plugs in their racing engines if I recall what he said correctly, and they do some of the best work out there) In our types of cars, this makes perfect sense though. For most people, a plug change should occur every 2 years or so. A plug change tells you a lot about how your car is running, and can alert you to impending problems down the road. Anyone with eyes in their head can notice major problems, and a little more skill can go a long way to getting the most out of your car.
 

Schulmann

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Daniel,

It is good that you have done tests yourself.
There is nothing better.
I haven't done test with Champion because it is difficult to get them in my area.

At present what plug do you use in your supercharged Viper ?
Do you have different plugs for highway and for race ?



These are my test results with NGK for a supercharged viper:
===========================================

NGK FR4 : Best for hwy type driving

NGK FR5 : Best for race type driving (maybe too hot for heavy racing)

NGK FR5-1: also good but have done extensive testing

NGK BKR5EIX irridium: Too cold for highway. I am not happy with race results. Viper behaves very similar to Bosch FR8DC. Likely good for heavy racers.

Bosch FR8DC : Too cold for highway. Viper behaves very similar to NGK BKR5EIX irridium. Likely good for heavy racers.
 

Jack B

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A couple of additional notes. I have used the FR5-1's for five years, two of those in a Gen1. They are the direct cross to the oem plug, however, when you compare the two side-by-side, the tip does not project as far and the tip has more mass to it. I have used it successfully with 200 and 300 shots of nitrous (multiple bottles)and it dyno's as good or better than the oem plug NA.

I am now pushing a 300+ shot and went to the Bosch FR8DC, as soon as you start the car you can hear the difference. There is no sign of fouling, however, at idle and when down-shifting there is a slight poping noise of raw gas igniting in the exhaust. Schulman, is that your experience.

One last issue that needs an answer. I know of a couple people that sucessfully use the oem plug on a 200-300 shot of nitrous. Logic says this isn't possible (especially over a long period), who want to answer this one, why do the the oem plugs work on large doses of nitrous.
 

Schulmann

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A couple of additional notes. I have used the FR5-1's for five years, two of those in a Gen1. They are the direct cross to the oem plug, however, when you compare the two side-by-side, the tip does not project as far and the tip has more mass to it. I have used it successfully with 200 and 300 shots of nitrous (multiple bottles)and it dyno's as good or better than the oem plug NA.
Yes they are shorter so maybe they are better suited for modified engins.
I have tried them but I didn't dare to push hard the engin. I will try these Champion RC12ECC proposed by Daniel ...


I am now pushing a 300+ shot and went to the Bosch FR8DC, as soon as you start the car you can hear the difference. There is no sign of fouling, however, at idle and when down-shifting there is a slight poping noise of raw gas igniting in the exhaust. Schulman, is that your experience.

Yes, but there is more trouble on my side with the FR8DC and irridium plugs. The poping noise would not bother however I have hesitation during acceleration. I mostly drive on highway between 1500rpm and 2500rpm. When I "suddenly" push hard, the engin hesitates. This doesn't happen with NGK FR4 or NGK FR5

One last issue that needs an answer. I know of a couple people that sucessfully use the oem plug on a 200-300 shot of nitrous. Logic says this isn't possible (especially over a long period), who want to answer this one, why do the the oem plugs work on large doses of nitrous.
Good question. If these guys have money to rebuild the engin they can test for us. The question is how much risk we can take. It is good to have these feed back on the plugs.

The problem is to understand what causes engin failures. Most guys don't investigate on this side. This would be the most precious information. My feeling is that plugs don't play major role in engin failure in case of the Viper. Rather it is poor timing, poor quality fuel etc. Placing a too exotic plug would also cause troubles.

So I will pick up a set of these RC12ECC plugs. My only real trouble is fooling at cylinder #10 ...
 

Schulmann

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CHECK THIS, I don't know why I didn't talk about this.

I have a friend runs 150 NOS on a GTS 2001.
He has:
- 1.7 roller rockers
- 1 3/4 headers
- 3'' exhaust
- No cats
- Vec2
- High flow filters and smooth tube
- RUNS ALWAYS with NGK BKR8EIX plugs

Two weeks ago we were on a dyno.
Guess how much he made without NOS:
ONLY 417 rwhp !!!!!!!!!!

With nos he makes around 530 rwhp.

The dyno guy told him that he has serious ignition troubles.
Well it came from the plugs.
His Viper makes HUGGGE backfires.
BKR8EIX is what I call a too exotic plug for street use.
I keep telling this friend to use a different plug for street but for some reason he doesn't listen.

This is an exemple what not to do ...
 

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Schulmann- I currently am using the RC10ECC's in the S/C car. There is no need to run a different plug for race or highway now. Previously, The car was using Denso Iridium IQ20's for both. I have had nothing but nightmares with the Bosch FR8DC, ther cause major backfiring at cruise speeds due to their inability to proerly ignite the mixture. A change to the Denso's immediately fixed this. However, the denso is a short plug, like the FR8DC, and there is definitely power missing using these short plugs. The RC10ECC is the best of both worlds- stong projected spark, and cool heat range. (PS- you listed twice above you wanted to try the RC12ECC, I think you meant RC10ECC?)

Jack B- I have gotten nothing but obnoxious popping with the FR8DC's.
 

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JACK- Are you refering to the RC10ECC, or another plug type I had mentioned?

If you are looking for the Champion RC10ECC's, I dont mean to toot my own horn, but it looks like I may be the only source for them for quite some time. I have bought all I could find in the entire country, and am waiting on more from Champion. They are a Very low production plug, and are a pain to find. I have two unspoken for sets comming in the next 1-2 weeks, and have another 100 coming a few weeks after that. Price is 5.25 each plus shipping. (This is my cost plus .50 cents per plug markup, plus my shipping costs (about another .50)
 

Schulmann

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Daniel,

What is the difference between RC12ECC and RC12LYC ?
Is it running cooler ?
What is the advantage of having double copper core ?
 

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Here is the breakdown for the Champion part number:

R= 14mm Thread, Gasket seat
C= 3/4 Inch Reach
12= Heat Range
E or LY= Projected Tip
C= Copper Core
CC= Double Copper (Copper core AND Copper Cored Ground Electrode)

The LYC is a Projected tip single copper plug, and the ECC is a Projected tip Double Copper plug. Copper is a MUCH better conducter of heat and electricity than steel. This helps to promote a stronger spark overall. Also, The Copper ground electrode extracts heat much better than a std. steel one. The core tip is not the only concern when it comes to preignition, the ground electrode can also cause preignition if it itself is running too hot. The other difference is the resistor type they use. ECC is a solid-state resistor, and LYC is a Q-type resistor. Almost all cars can use either or, such as the Viper. The Solid State types were originally developed for Marine use, because they have differnt ignition systems that rely on feedback from the plug. Q-type resistors do not have any feedback. However most cars come with Solid State types now, to keep things simple. This includes the SRT which uses the ECC solid state type plug.

To answer your question directly, yes, technically it is running cooler- in the ground electrode only.


Wow... I have done WAY too much research on spark plugs for my own good. The scariest part is I have not looked at any sources for any of this information... its all memorized, applied and tested. As sad as it is, that includes breakdown for Denso, Champion, Bosch, and NGK.


I need a new hobby.... :smirk:
 

orlandov10

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Daniel, what do you think of the NGK 6097 in a Roe SC 99 Viper GTS? I have about 20 of these left from my old 700RWHP Supra, my buddy just had his Paxton S/C installed with Macedoon his 04 and he runs these plugs. I put them it today, they seem to run well but I do get a good bit of popping when I let off the throttle, I just installed headers today and I have no cats, just a 3" Borla Exhaust, do you think the Champions would help run better?
 

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OrlandoV10- The NGK plugs you have should work fine in a boosted application, as they are a heat range of 7, as opposed to stock 5 on NGK's scale. (2 heat ranges colder than stock)

However, it is hard to judge your actual problem, as you you state that you installed an exhaust and plugs at the same time...? finding the culprit is not a sure bet. I would recomend this: Try a set of stock plugs (cheap, about 20 bucks) I wouldnt recomend laying into the throttle on these plugs... but warm up the car, cruise it around, and let off the throttle to see if the popping is better or worse. If it is better, then yes, the RC10ECC will be better in your application. If there is very little or no change, then it has more to do with your tune and exhaust setup.
 

Schulmann

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Jack B,

You say that you use NGK FR5-1 in your NOS Vipers and never had problems. Am I right ? How do you alter your timing compared to an NGK FR5 plug ? Or how would you alter ?

I just went back to the stock RC12LYC plug on my supercharged (6.5 psi) viper and definitely for daily driving it is much better. I did a 30mi test drive. During the drive I on went into boost 4-5 times for 2-3 seconds.
So for a 1000-1500mi hwy drive I would definitely stay with the stock plugs.
 

Jack B

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Schulman:

I have never used the FR5, just the FR5-1 and the oem plug. There are some people that still use the oem plug on nitrous.
 

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Schulmann- Thats whats great about the RC10ECC's- they drive exactly like a stock plug, maily due to their configuration, but are indeed colder and will not suffer from pregnition issues like OEM plugs can.

Jack- I dont think I got a call or message from you yet, give me a ring when you get a chance.
 

cyaford

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I concur. For a close to stock engine, stock is best. Stock is RC12LYC Champion. However, you may want to consider going to the RC12ECC, which is the SRT-10 OEM plug. Identical to the LYC other than it is a double copper, Vs. a single copper. They use different resistor types too, but that doesnt matter. The copper ground electrode on the ECC will conduct heat away faster than the Steel one in the LYC.

So a good plug for a near stock 97 GTS would be the Champion RC12ECC plugs? I'm getting my GTS this week and the plugs and wires are on my short list of things to do. Thanks!
 

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CYAFORD- Define "Near Stock"... If you just have Intake/Exhaust, go with the RC12ECC/LYC, if you have a VEC-1, VEC-2, Cam, Headwork, S/C, or Nitrous, go with the RC10ECC.
 

pauls

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Anyone tried the new Autolite Iridum extended tip? I have had good luck with Denso in a Chevy but they didn't make an extended tip. Autolite does.
Autolite XP Iridium XP985
 

KenH

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So your saying that I can get rid of all the popping I am getting when idling around town by ditching the Bosch FR8DCs and going with the RC10ECCs with my setup?
 

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Pauls- Autolite XP985's are the same heat range as OEM, not the best choice in a high-HP application.

KenH- While the popping can really never be completely eliminated due to cyl. 10 running richer than the rest at idle/cruise on the Roe S/C's, the difference when installing the RC10ECC's is HUGE. The current S/C car I am finishing this week went from "embarrassing to drive" to "certainly livable- just keeps bystanders on their toes." As a side benefit the car is smoother. The only time it really pops now is when you let off the pedal, which is not far from normal, its just a little louder.
 

cyaford

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CYAFORD- Define "Near Stock"... If you just have Intake/Exhaust, go with the RC12ECC/LYC

Bingo! Actually, just an exhaust for now. Will be adding smooth tubes/filter a little later. Looks like I'll go with the ECCs. Thanks! :2tu:
 

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