High Performance Tires

[TwinTurbo]

Have only driven my car maybe 15 minutes and although I have had penty of High Performance cars I know I will have to learn the Viper as a new breed of car. I am in the process of getting twin Turbos installed and now I am concerned about the right tires.

After reading many post about the "Run Flats" and the accidents they cause due to loss of traction I am wondering what you would suggest as to the best tires for High Performance. I am not worried about tire milage but definately want to get rid of the stock Run Flats and buy whatever you would recommend.

Thanks for your help as I know you all definately know what works and what doesn't.

 

[Kai SRT10]

PS2
The new Kumho V700 (not available quite yet, I understand, but coming soon.)

 

[TwinTurbo]

PS2
The new Kumho V700 (not available quite yet, I understand, but coming soon.)

Thanks as I will check tire dealerships...

 

[Shandon]

PS II's Just put mine on and realy make a difference!!!

 

[Hamrhead]

It took me all of 500 miles to replace my RunFlats with Michelin PS2's. They definitely dig-in better!

 

[TwinTurbo]

It took me all of 500 miles to replace my RunFlats with Michelin PS2's. They definitely dig-in better!

Have a set of Michelins on my other cars but are they better than Kumho's for the Viper?

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Have only driven my car maybe 15 minutes and although I have had penty of High Performance cars I know I will have to learn the Viper as a new breed of car. I am in the process of getting twin Turbos installed and now I am concerned about the right tires.

After reading many post about the "Run Flats" and the accidents they cause due to loss of traction I am wondering what you would suggest as to the best tires for High Performance. I am not worried about tire milage but definately want to get rid of the stock Run Flats and buy whatever you would recommend.

Thanks for your help as I know you all definately know what works and what doesn't.

Do not blame the run flats for a drivers lack of car control! Several have posted that run flats are not as good as? But look at the track results at Buttonwillow Raceway, a track novice(first time on a race track) turnes 2:12 in a 2003 Viper with the origional (old rubber by performance standards).

 

[Janni]

Do not blame the run flats for a drivers lack of car control! Several have posted that run flats are not as good as? But look at the track results at Buttonwillow Raceway, a track novice(first time on a race track) turnes 2:12 in a 2003 Viper with the origional (old rubber by performance standards).

Oh Fred - come on - it's much easier to just say the run-flats **** than it is to try to learn the limits of adhesion and drive accordingly.

 

[Viper X]

TT,

If you're putting twin turbos on your Viper, don't waste time with PS2's. You will fry them easily with just throttle.

The Kumho Ecsta V-700s work better than anything currently available. I run 18's on the back of my 925 rwhp beast and they stick pretty well. You will still have to modulate the throttle in 1st and 2nd, but not nearly as much. Rumor has it that the Kumhos may be available in 19's this year. I hope so.

Nitto also makes a very nice drag radial for the street. While it handles very well for a drag radial, it doesn't handle quite as well in the turns as the Kumhos, but if you're just going straight, it works pretty well.

Good luck,

Dan

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Oh Fred - come on - it's much easier to just say the run-flats **** than it is to try to learn the limits of adhesion and drive accordingly.

Janni,

You are 100% correct! It is a lot easier to look for an excuse than to accept responsibility for car control. My only concern is that the new owner or uninformed might believe the myth spread by a few who blame everything on something rather then own their own limitations.

No doubt you can select specific tires that perform better under specific conditions. Hoosier VRL slicks work great after two heat cycles on a dry track. They work like a surf board on a wet track. After about 5 heat cycles, on a dry track, their grip approaches run flats.

Viper stock street tire area great, they run good in dry conditions and not as bad as most other street tires in the wet, and are run flats. Very good compromise in tire performance.

 

[TwinTurbo]

Ok To begin with I'm not trying to blame anything on the Run Flats or excuse the fact that if I total my car that I blamed it on the tires that come on the Viper and agree whatever tires you run you should be able to know "it's" limits. Why is it that most on here hate the stock Viper tires? I'm just trying to get an opinion on THE BEST tire for the Viper for street and occasional High Performance driving. Not on the track, not on the drag strip but occasional street racing. Nothing more Nothing less. You guys are the experts on Vipers.... Again, Thank you for your opinion

Viper X ....appreciate your opinion

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Ok To begin with I'm not trying to blame anything on the Run Flats or excuse the fact that if I total my car that I blamed it on the tires that come on the Viper and agree whatever tires you run you should be able to know "it's" limits. Why is it that most on here hate the stock Viper tires? I'm just trying to get an opinion on THE BEST tire for the Viper for street and occasional High Performance driving. Not on the track, not on the drag strip but occasional street racing. Nothing more Nothing less. You guys are the experts on Vipers.... Again, Thank you for your opinion

Viper X ....appreciate your opinion

Twin Turbo

First I do not think most on this site think hate the stock tires. There are a few who are do not understand the relationship between car control and grip. The Viper has massive torque compared to other brands that many consider high performance cars. I have observed national autocross corvette champions spin a Viper thinking they know how to drive. They do know how to drive a corvette, but the torque of a Viper is a surprise to most drivers.

SRT spends a lot of time getting the "Best" all around street tire. I think it is quite hard to match the stock tires overall performance let alone better it. If you want to give up the run-flat feature and wet surfcae grip there may be somthing out there. Call Jon B. and tell him what you want from a tire and see if he has somthing to fit you needs. I run stock tires on the street and Hoosiers on the track. But my track car is not a turbo monster, it is normalls aspirated which is more than I have been able to master.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Fred 4 heat cycles on my run flats and they were rock hard. Not worth a damn. They were pretty good onj the track until that point. But, and this is big for anyone with performance adders, the cold performance was awful. Spin easily in 3rd gear with gentle tip-in. Very hard to control and basically scary.

Sport Cups were even better hot but have similar performance cold. I have not tried PS2 but a switch to normal Pilots was a distinct improvement.

But more than anything please quit telling everyone that it is the drivers lack of training and not the car, the tire, etc. In the case of the run flats it is the tire. Just like with the original tires in 92-95 it was the tire. And those performed well on the track too. Just had snap oversteer on the street that was ridiculous.

 

[mynewviper]

But more than anything please quit telling everyone that it is the drivers lack of training and not the car, the tire, etc. In the case of the run flats it is the tire. Just like with the original tires in 92-95 it was the tire. And those performed well on the track too. Just had snap oversteer on the street that was ridiculous.[/QUOTE]


Thank you...

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

But more than anything please quit telling everyone that it is the drivers lack of training and not the car, the tire, etc. In the case of the run flats it is the tire. Just like with the original tires in 92-95 it was the tire. And those performed well on the track too. Just had snap oversteer on the street that was ridiculous.

Thank you...[/quote]

Not true!

1. 92-95 Vipers have a totally different suspension which makes it drive more like an AC Cobra no matter what tires are on these years. Oversteer is part of the nature. In 96 major changes were made to the suspension.

2. For a beginner to run 2:12 at Buttonwillow on lod run flast is awsome. Most could not run beginners could not run 2:12's in a Compe Coupe. And this was after 20 heat cycles as the father and son were sharing(three days of track time) the SRT10.

The run flats perform well - remember to always check tire pressure as grip is related to same. Better to check tire temperature if you can.

 

[mike & juli]

We don't track the Viper--we 'street' it (light to light sometimes!!)...and the runflats are fine EXcept on the cold roads...once warmed up, there are NO problems with them whatsoever...so since we're not tracking the car, we're staying with the run-flats...they grip beautifully once warmed up---THAT's the point right there--WARMED up...NOT good cold/cold roads...spin more. This is just IMHO. Fred is only stating facts straight up.
~juli~

 

[Jasone]

run flats are a great tire. I tracked mine for almost full year and put about 30 heat cycles on them. I even tracked them in heavy rain.. stuck like glue.

I run mid 2:30s at Sebring and I know people that lap faster than that on run flats.

If you can't control your car with run flats.. it's NOT the tires... it's you.

 

[Viper X]

Hey Fred,

This guy is looking for street tires, not track tires. You just don't get enough heat into the run flats or standard pilots in normal street driving to get the traction up to where you can get it to on the track. At a track like Button Willow with all of it's turns, even old, crumby tires will get very warm and can perform OK if your car control skills are good.

Cold, the run flats are like driving on ice especially with power adders. The stock Pilots are lousy when cold too.

You'd think after all of the one car Viper accidents, someone would add lousy tires (old, hard, worn out, etc.) to the common statement about lousy drivers. There is no doubt in my mind that both of the above factors contribute to our higher incidence of one car accidents.

Do you have a tire durometer? This litte device is used to test tire hardness. I use it on my race tires. When they get into the low 60's, it's time for them to go. I can tell you that the run flats and the stock pilots are 10 to 20% harder (less sticky) when used a bit or getting old (try 75 to 80) than some other high performance tires (like Kumhos).

Dan

 

[TwinTurbo]

Hey Fred,

This guy is looking for street tires, not track tires. You just don't get enough heat into the run flats or standard pilots in normal street driving to get the traction up to where you can get it to on the track. At a track like Button Willow with all of it's turns, even old, crumby tires will get very warm and can perform OK if your car control skills are good.

Cold, the run flats are like driving on ice especially with power adders. The stock Pilots are lousy when cold too.

You'd think after all of the one car Viper accidents, someone would add lousy tires (old, hard, worn out, etc.) to the common statement about lousy drivers. There is no doubt in my mind that both of the above factors contribute to our higher incidence of one car accidents.

Do you have a tire durometer? This litte device is used to test tire hardness. I use it on my race tires. When they get into the low 60's, it's time for them to go. I can tell you that the run flats and the stock pilots are 10 to 20% harder (less sticky) when used a bit or getting old (try 75 to 80) than some other high performance tires (like Kumhos).

Dan

Thanks Fred as it seems some people have no problem and you being around Vipers you must know what works. Thanks Juli but so many times I have heard of "warming up" the runflats so that they will stick. And thanks Dan as I have heard your statement more than once and this is one reason for my posting. I'm trying to find out "IF" there is a better tire that has better traction with better compound that you don't have to worry about "heating up" so that the compound will stick.
I am aware that there is no substitue for driving experience and I am none the wiser now than when I started as to finding a "better" tire. Dan must have thought the tires needed replaced. He seemed to think his car handled better. Fred seems to think that people all the time keep the Runflats and they are just fine. It's just that maybe I misunderstood why so many people hated the RunFlats. I am only concerned about the fact that if I am out in my Viper I just want to know that I have the best tire available. Not that I need to learn to drive, not that I have too much Hp but just what is the BEST tire available that you trust and believe in. So you say "Leave the RunFlats...They are fine" or would you change them? I also understand that the Viper is a car to itself. I just want to know if you would trust your life with the RunFlats or is there a better tire available?? Again.... Thank you

 

[GR8_ASP]

Thank you...

Not true!

1. 92-95 Vipers have a totally different suspension which makes it drive more like an AC Cobra no matter what tires are on these years. Oversteer is part of the nature. In 96 major changes were made to the suspension.[/quote]

Well, I hate to say this Fred but you are dead wrong on this. I put 35,000 miles on a Gen I. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the snap oversteer issue with the OEM tires (when new!) and the extremely limited feedback when approaching the tire adhesion limit was the tire. Subsequent updates to then current versions of MXX and then Pilots improved the handling dramatically, without any change in the suspension. That does not mean that the car did not have oversteer. Of course it did. But it lost that SNAP oversteer condition that would bite even the most experienced driver. Having good progressive response and driver feedback is crucial and the original OEM tires did not.

Now the run flats are now where close to the 92-95 OEM tires. They are way better. But, as Viper X stated above, they cannot handle the added power/torque and perform poorly when not heated. They also deteriorate due to heat cycles quicker than I have experienced with Pilots.

 

[madman]

I wouldn't wory about the daily tires if the straight line performance is what you want. All of them are ****ty when cold and old (worn off) and all of them perform reasonably well when warmed up.

Now if you are into lateral G performance (high speed curves) and driving feedback you are on a different turf. You wouldn't believe (until you try) what difference it makes to have Sport Cups 295/30-18 up front instead of 275(285)/35-18. This IS a difference. The steering response is so precise and nimble with SCups that you won't want to have anything else afterwards. Kumho V7xx is supposed to be similar to Scups.

Don't be mistaken - if you put new sport cups on you will think you're on ice. You must run them in or better yet have them shaved by tirerack. After run in they are awesome and will hold your car in a curve like a glue. My best advice - get set of SSRs with shaved SCups and don't look back.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Not true!

1. 92-95 Vipers have a totally different suspension which makes it drive more like an AC Cobra no matter what tires are on these years. Oversteer is part of the nature. In 96 major changes were made to the suspension.

Well, I hate to say this Fred but you are dead wrong on this. I put 35,000 miles on a Gen I. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the snap oversteer issue with the OEM tires (when new!) and the extremely limited feedback when approaching the tire adhesion limit was the tire. Subsequent updates to then current versions of MXX and then Pilots improved the handling dramatically, without any change in the suspension. That does not mean that the car did not have oversteer. Of course it did. But it lost that SNAP oversteer condition that would bite even the most experienced driver. Having good progressive response and driver feedback is crucial and the original OEM tires did not.

Now the run flats are now where close to the 92-95 OEM tires. They are way better. But, as Viper X stated above, they cannot handle the added power/torque and perform poorly when not heated. They also deteriorate due to heat cycles quicker than I have experienced with Pilots.[/quote]

Agree with what you say above!

No question the tires continue to improve as have each generation of the Viper suspension. The present generation has much better feed back and rear end traction due to the suspension and differential improvements and of course the tires. I have never claimed the Gen I tires were better then later Gen stock tires.

Tires are the only thing in contact with the road so clearly they are a very critical link in performance. But the bottom line is that a driver must own responsibility of knowing where his limits as well as the car. Otherwise they will be separated!

 

[Viper X]

Madman,

No offense. PS Cups are not near Kumho Ecsta V700's in "stickiness". I've owned and tried both on the same car, same track. I sold the Cups shortly thereafter. They are lousy cold, OK warm and then tended to over heat on my car while tracking.

On the street, they're no better than PS2's and may not be as good. You just can't get them warm enough most of the time on the street to make them sticky.

Good luck TT,

Just trying to help.

Dan

 

[viper spray]

Kumhos , if you can get them..........

 

[Bobpantax]

I think that the best evidence to evaluate the performance of the run flats is the fact that Dodge will not be using them on the 2008 Viper. Yes, it is possible to learn about and adjust to the tire, but that begs the question. When Herb Helbig spoke to our VCA chapter in the spring of 2006, he acknowledged that they were looking into a non run flat tire for the new Viper for a number of reasons. As we can now all see, SRT has abandoned the run flat.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I think that the best evidence to evaluate the performance of the run flats is the fact that Dodge will not be using them on the 2008 Viper. Yes, it is possible to learn about and adjust to the tire, but that begs the question. When Herb Helbig spoke to our VCA chapter in the spring of 2006, he acknowledged that they were looking into a non run flat tire for the new Viper for a number of reasons. As we can now all see, SRT has abandoned the run flat.

Well "THAT' tells a lot about the RunFlats!! Thanks !!

 

[DavidSB]

I finally switched from the OEM run-flats to non-run-flats at the last Viper Day Buttonwillow event. I went faster on the non-run-flats and attrribute it to two factors: 1) simply using new tires (although the run-flats were low mileage with 8 track session heat cycles) and 2) my sense that the non-run-flats are a more progressive tire and give much more warning as they reach their adhesion limits so I could explore the limits without quite as much fear. With the run-flats I always felt that I was either below the limits or instantly over it.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

I finally switched from the OEM run-flats to non-run-flats at the last Viper Day Buttonwillow event. I went faster on the non-run-flats and attrribute it to two factors: 1) simply using new tires (although the run-flats were low mileage with 8 track session heat cycles) and 2) my sense that the non-run-flats are a more progressive tire and give much more warning as they reach their adhesion limits so I could explore the limits without quite as much fear. With the run-flats I always felt that I was either below the limits or instantly over it.

What were your times?

In my exp. With the same tires each day gest faster times due to learning the track. Fresh rubber should be faster then old rubber.

 

[madman]

Madman,

No offense. PS Cups are not near Kumho Ecsta V700's in "stickiness". I've owned and tried both on the same car, same track. I sold the Cups shortly thereafter. They are lousy cold, OK warm and then tended to over heat on my car while tracking.

On the street, they're no better than PS2's and may not be as good. You just can't get them warm enough most of the time on the street to make them sticky.

Good luck TT,

Just trying to help.

Dan

None taken. From my personal experience PS Cups are way better then PS2s but they need to be shaved (per mfgr recommendation) or worn off. Mine weren't shaved and when new they felt worse then regular PS on track. But when they wore off they stuck like a glue even when cold. If you had them only shortly (you said you got rid of them soon) you could have experienced their 'wet characteristics' (they are not supposed to be shaved for wet use). I have no comment on Kumhos V700, didn't try them. But different Kumhos I used on my S2000 were awesome. Kumho definitely is a good brand.

 

[DavidSB]

Fred,
Worked my way down from 2:25's Saturday morning to a best of 2:11.8 in the 2nd Sunday session. It was a "golden lap" with clear track and no one in front to distract me into following their line. The rest of my laps that session were bunched around 2:14-2:15. I was wrong about the prior track heat cycles: I had 4 cycles from VD in Feb. and then 4 the day before the fast time. After lunch on Sunday, when the temps went up, the track (tires?) seemed much slicker and my times went up to 2:16 - 2:18.