$180,000 Gen 5 Viper

2000_Black_RT10

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If Chrysler sells the Viper to a smaller manufacturer, that is my minimum price prediction.

Gut instinct (and 17 years of automotive design experience) thinks aluminum chassis & more carbon fibre (body panels). Carryover purchased components vs. low volume tooling costs more money either way. It'll add up quick to be a profitable & competitive business venture.

Any wagers / thoughts?
 

pteam

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I dont think anybody will buy it when you can buy brand new 08s for $80k this year or 2 year old ones for $50k whos gonna go and decide to pay $100k - $130k more? Also it would have to have way more than the current 600 hp 08 viper to justify 100 grand more. You could go out and buy 3 2003 vipers for $150k instead of just 1.
 
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2000_Black_RT10

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I dont think anybody will buy it when you can buy brand new 08s for $80k this year or 2 year old ones for $50k whos gonna go and decide to pay $100k - $130k more? Also it would have to have way more than the current 600 hp 08 viper to justify 100 grand more. You could go out and buy 3 2003 vipers for $150k instead of just 1.

Why buy a Porsche when you can buy this.. it's a relative Q.. many carryover components and a carbon fibre body, aluminum chassis, and they are selling quick at $519k..

RoadandTrack.com -- Feature - 2008 Ruf CTR3 (7/2007)
 

pteam

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Well people do pay for $400k carrera gt's and others so if it did have a carbon fiber body and other valuable stuff it would be worth it.
 
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2000_Black_RT10

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The Carrera GT carbon chassis is significant.. I still think there is a middle ground, an aluminum chassis Viper, some carbon panels, etc.. will be a step up from the steel chassis car.. and very competitive in the racing world. The last carbon fibre body Viper was the race version of GTS-R or Comp Coupe, those sold for more than 200k.. so I'm just visualizing a new Gen 5 with some carbon panels, aluminum chassis, etc.. selling for around $180k.
 
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1BADGTS

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Even with the advanced technology to get anywhere near that amount of money for the car whoever owns the right to it would have to GREATLY improve the interior ect probably go to a mid engine -exotic layout ect.(Can an American Man command that sort of money for a front engine mounted car )As far as i know its NEVER been done where as a vehicle as doubled in price from one GENERATION to another.To me at least no where near feasionable -a 180 grand car ,front engine layout car supposidly sold and serviced thru Dodge .
 

1BADGTS

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PS if it were mid engine (Forf GT )exotic as HELL for some reason different story.
 

HI-NOS-Viper

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If it was to be marked up that much very very few would purchase it. I dont think it would survive if the price was that much. This is why SRT must oversea everything involved with the Viper when/If sold. I can see the base model going for 100k, but not much more.
 
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DAMN YANKEE

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I don't think so.....

EPA and safety testing alone makes this one heck of an expensive proposition. I'm thinking track cars only. If it was at all easy, Dodge would have just gotten on with it. They didn't because something has changed....the world. To make matters worse, the line will take a bruising as not being important enough to carry on with, in other words, the discontinued Viper.

Chasis....too old.
Body.....lost many of us right there.
Running gear.....next.
Engine....worth something to the right house.

Everything else....everything....needs to be completely redone as nobody is going to buy a Dodge Viper that isn't. To sell the motor in a new supercar means sticking to old school hp concepts (tested, proven, but old school) and assetts locked into hard machinery and supply chains.

Does this make our Vipers anything other the fantastic machines? Not at all.

It just means wet dreams about somebody dragging this design along is, IMO, possible with outcomes about as exciting as the Avanti II.


From back when....

When once one said "It's a Dodge Viper I'll buy!"
A company strong was there to boldly reply
"We hear you and what's more, we want to deliver
a product so fast as to make you sit there and quiver!
Just the product you WANT and do so with great pride!"
Alas, right now that clarion call has subsided..
replaced in good measure where analyst have guided.
Now the refrain a street racer is more to likely to hear,
is apt to bring anguish rather than gear grinding cheer.
"I'm afriad what you want may not be what you deserve,
12mpg is a tough thing to sell to those investor's we serve!
Our thoughts are turning more to cars that make a new statement,
one that resounds with fuel consumption and waste abatement!
In fact the chances of us spending new money on another rocket?
Well, lets just say it just ain't on the docket......."
 
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dave6666

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Explaining Viper things to you
I'm still trying to get my DD fixed up. Can't be too concerned about a Gen 5 just yet.

Hey... Anyone have some tips on buffing out Krylon?

:eater:

You must be registered for see images
 

Y2K5SRT

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All very good reasoning, but all very off. The Gen V Viper will undoubtedly be very similar in price to the current Viper (maybe a tick or two higher) and it absolutely will be a street car, most likely with a track variation (ACR/Comp Coupe). Don't have time to write my usual novel, but here are a couple reasons why:

  1. Of the reasons Chrysler is considering that sale, one of the most prominent is that a smaller manufacturer isn't held to the same federal regulations that a major manufacturer is. Thus they could be more creative and have less cost involved to build the car. Not a guess - a fact stated by several people here in Detroit.
  2. SRT very much wants to stay involved with this car. Many people know, and Ralph Gilles himself stated the other night, that they had already been doing a lot of R&D on the next generation Viper. Certainly any potential buyer would demand that they receive as much of that work as possible.
  3. A potential sales does NOT mean that it is a "stand alone" arrangement. The intent, if at all possible, would be to continue to utilize Chrysler/SRT personnel on contract basis - likewise with a "authorized dealer network" comprised of various Chrysler/Dodge dealers. Don't be surprised if you continue to see the Dodge brand on the Viper for many years to come.
  4. Most importantly and as noted in a previous analogy, why would you buy a nameplate just to change everything? They want what the Viper is and what the current ownership population represents. Like buying a McDonalds and then changing everything on the menu and selling $30 steaks instead. It makes absolutely no sense at all - you would be better off starting a new brand for that kind of money ($150M).
Bottom line? The Viper is here to stay and it will continue to be targeted at the people buying them today, and possibly expand that market a bit if they can. I am not buying a $180K car no matter what the brand, nor will a lot of current Viper owners. Any potential buyer knows the customer demographics inside and out. They will make sure they continue to buy the Viper for many years down the road. Exciting stuff!
 

1BADGTS

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I don't think so.....

EPA and safety testing alone makes this one heck of an expensive proposition. I'm thinking track cars only. If it was at all easy, Dodge would have just gotten on with it. They didn't because something has changed....the world. To make matters worse, the line will take a bruising as not being important enough to carry on with, in other words, the discontinued Viper.

Chasis....too old.
Body.....lost many of us right there.
Running gear.....next.
Engine....worth something to the right house.

Everything else....everything....needs to be completely redone as nobody is going to buy a Dodge Viper that isn't. To sell the motor in a new supercar means sticking to old school hp concepts (tested, proven, but old school) and assetts locked into hard machinery and supply chains.

Does this make our Vipers anything other the fantastic machines? Not at all.

It just means wet dreams about somebody dragging this design along is, IMO, possible with outcomes about as exciting as the Avanti II.


From back when....

When once one said "It's a Dodge Viper I'll buy!"
A company strong was there to boldly reply
"We hear you and what's more, we want to deliver
a product so fast as to make you sit there and quiver!
Just the product you WANT and do so with great pride!"
Alas, right now that clarion call has subsided..
replaced in good measure where analyst have guided.
Now the refrain a street racer is more to likely to hear,
is apt to bring anguish rather than gear grinding cheer.
"I'm afriad what you want may not be what you deserve,
12mpg is a tough thing to sell to those investor's we serve!
Our thoughts are turning more to cars that make a new statement,
one that resounds with fuel consumption and waste abatement!
In fact the chances of us spending new money on another rocket?
Well, lets just say it just ain't on the docket......."
Exactly.The above is what killed the FORD GT.Plain and simple the car after 06 could not pass (i believe it was) an upcoming model year rear crash test without major reengineering.Way too much money for Ford to spend on a 1000 plus per year car.Another problem hypothethical would be the sales and service aspect of a 180 grand car.Frankly (assuming it still would be sold-serviced thru Dodge )dont know if correct fit here.
 

viperbilliam

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If I were to follow the reasoning of Y2K5SRT, it sounds like Dodge is trying to help the Viper survive by putting in a better environment and get some money at the same time. Sounds like a win-win if this were to follow through as such. Too bad the Ford GT couldn't have been packaged similarly - say to Saleen for example.
 
D

DAMN YANKEE

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Y2KSRT, it would be nice if you were right, lets all hope so. You may remember the "after you left" photo I posted a while back, for better or worse, I place the ability of the Dodge Savants to predict their own future simular to the WMD detectives' circa 2001.

I do believe that the current body style is/was dead-on-arrival and that a completely new body would be a requirement to keep the legend alive. Hot Wheels colors on the current one have taken it far enough.
 

Coloviper

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Y2K5SRT;

Well you played your cards because Saleen is the ONLY Federally Recognized small vehicle manufacturer in the US. The tuners are not and if discussions are taking place as you mention, there is only one company that plays in that rhelm that is federally recognized as a small vehicle manufacturer. Saleen plays by different rules by being in different categories. They also know how to work around the Federal emissions issues for push rod motors which allowed them to extend the life of the S351Rs past 1995 and the one year exemption in 1999 where even model year 2000 mustangs were built and registered as 1999s to meet regulations.
 

GTSRboy2000

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This possibility also poped into my mind...but being at a decent price is at the roots of what makes a viper a viper, so i hope that this new owner also knows that.
 

1BADGTS

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If I were to follow the reasoning of Y2K5SRT, it sounds like Dodge is trying to help the Viper survive by putting in a better environment and get some money at the same time. Sounds like a win-win if this were to follow through as such. Too bad the Ford GT couldn't have been packaged similarly - say to Saleen for example.
The problem was from what i understand too much money was needed -redesign pass newly imposed crash test .Was not feasionable Ford to do this.
 

Y2K5SRT

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it sounds like Dodge is trying to help the Viper survive by putting in a better environment and get some money at the same time.
BINGO!

And what is funny is that a couple of my die hard Corvette friends say they almost wish Chevy would do the same with the Vette sometimes...
Well you played your cards because Saleen is the ONLY Federally Recognized small vehicle manufacturer in the US. The tuners are not and if discussions are taking place as you mention, there is only one company that plays in that rhelm that is federally recognized as a small vehicle manufacturer.
Ah, but if such a "tuner" were to produce that many vehicles (900-1700 a year), they would probably enter that category by default. Thus it could be, and from what I understand is, anybody's game! :2tu:
 

PatentLaw

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All very good reasoning, but all very off. The Gen V Viper will undoubtedly be very similar in price to the current Viper (maybe a tick or two higher) and it absolutely will be a street car, most likely with a track variation (ACR/Comp Coupe). Don't have time to write my usual novel, but here are a couple reasons why:

  1. Of the reasons Chrysler is considering that sale, one of the most prominent is that a smaller manufacturer isn't held to the same federal regulations that a major manufacturer is. Thus they could be more creative and have less cost involved to build the car. Not a guess - a fact stated by several people here in Detroit.
  2. SRT very much wants to stay involved with this car. Many people know, and Ralph Gilles himself stated the other night, that they had already been doing a lot of R&D on the next generation Viper. Certainly any potential buyer would demand that they receive as much of that work as possible.
  3. A potential sales does NOT mean that it is a "stand alone" arrangement. The intent, if at all possible, would be to continue to utilize Chrysler/SRT personnel on contract basis - likewise with a "authorized dealer network" comprised of various Chrysler/Dodge dealers. Don't be surprised if you continue to see the Dodge brand on the Viper for many years to come.
  4. Most importantly and as noted in a previous analogy, why would you buy a nameplate just to change everything? They want what the Viper is and what the current ownership population represents. Like buying a McDonalds and then changing everything on the menu and selling $30 steaks instead. It makes absolutely no sense at all - you would be better off starting a new brand for that kind of money ($150M).
Bottom line? The Viper is here to stay and it will continue to be targeted at the people buying them today, and possibly expand that market a bit if they can. I am not buying a $180K car no matter what the brand, nor will a lot of current Viper owners. Any potential buyer knows the customer demographics inside and out. They will make sure they continue to buy the Viper for many years down the road. Exciting stuff!


Chris,

Respectfully I believe that you are wrong. Here is the truth of the matter.......
VOI was recently used by Dodge to not showcase the Viper, but to actually showcase the people who buy the car to the respective buyers. Undoubtedly, the organizations who wish to purchase the line were there. They realized that people were willing to spend their own cash for a marketing pitch by the company. It is an unusual position for a company to have.

With this in mind, the new company would want to take all of the money that potential buyers would be willing to leave. Cars that compete against Viper are much more expensive......(P cars, ZR1, Lambo, Ferrari). There is potential there.

Of course, any company would want to be the "good guy" and not raise prices as soon as they complete the purchase. One year later, however, here comes the price increase. I believe that $180,000 is too much, however. I price increase to $110,000 is not out of the question. $135,000 for an ACR. It stays within the Demographics.

From the information available, the idea of providing "financing" means that the purchasing entity does not have much money to do this. It is a small entity. I agree with you that the deal would most likely involve purchase of Dodge engines and other Dodge parts, therefore maximizing the production capabilities of the organization.

A price increase, in my opinion, is inevitable. There is room there.
 

MoparMan

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A price increase, in my opinion, is inevitable. There is room there.

Totally agree with everything you said. Furthermore, Chrysler is not going to give the buyer of the Viper platform engineering services for free, they are not going to sell common parts (radios, hubs, etc) to the buyer of the Viper platform at cost, the new owner of the platform will have to spend money engineering a new assembly line in a new location, they will have to spend money further engineering the development already done by Chrysler on future Vipers and all this engineering effort comes with an increased overhead because the overhead is not divided among nearly as many employees. All this adds up to a price increase for the Viper when under new ownership. It's not all as rosy as the VCA officers would have you believe. This is a last ditch effort by Chrysler to get something for a platform they have already decided to axe.
 
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2000_Black_RT10

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Totally agree with everything you said. Furthermore, Chrysler is not going to give the buyer of the Viper platform engineering services for free, they are not going to sell common parts (radios, hubs, etc) to the buyer of the Viper platform at cost, the new owner of the platform will have to spend money engineering a new assembly line in a new location, they will have to spend money further engineering the development already done by Chrysler on future Vipers and all this engineering effort comes with an increased overhead because the overhead is not divided among nearly as many employees. All this adds up to a price increase for the Viper when under new ownership. It's not all as rosy as the VCA officers would have you believe. This is a last ditch effort by Chrysler to get something for a platform they have already decided to axe.

Exactly.

Yet a cost saving benefit that I predict is that they will buy the Connor pant, kick out the UAW and refill it with $15 / hr wage workers to build the car.. In the end, that's what I predict what is going on to achieve a 110k price tag..
 

Pictureman

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In some marketing areas being in the middle is a bad thing right now, which I see the Viper as being. Being in the lower end market like a Charger, Muststang, Challenger, Corvette etc is a good place to be or at the other end in the high end market. If you can afford a $150,000 Viper why wouldn't you just shell out the money for something costing much much more. If you can't afford the 100,000 - 150,000 Viper then a Corvette or Challenger, 2010 Camaro would be the way to go. With only 600 or whatever it is Vipers sold this year it seems to be that they are in that middle of the road area and raising the price would only make it worse unless they radically increased the desire for one.
 

cheryl mccally

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Y2K, why has no one yet mentioned the fact that John Hennessey has wanted to buy out the Viper line now for several years. He has just build a new track in Texas and looks to me to be the that would want to be to Viper what Saleen is to Ford.
 

1BADGTS

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Y2K, why has no one yet mentioned the fact that John Hennessey has wanted to buy out the Viper line now for several years. He has just build a new track in Texas and looks to me to be the that would want to be to Viper what Saleen is to Ford.[/QUOTE Is is in the financial shape to do anything near this caliber .Remember the amount of judgements against his companys is staggering.Dodge would probably take all of this into account .
 

Coloviper

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Y2K;

As long as Saleen stays under 2000 cars a year they are fine in their small manufacturer classification. They almost hit that a few years ago with all models considered, thus I do not see there being a problem.

I am still not keen on a non-Dodge Viper, but time wll tell if the new car is screaming out at me. If it is Saleen, I am going to be cautious as I have lived with Saleens and Saleen "Support :( " over the years. A tuner and I will probably just buy an older graphite RT/10 to fill the hunger if I get it. Loving my 06' Coupe too much right now, but then again, I do love my 95' S351R Speedster too.
 

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I have to agree with 2000_Black_RT10's initial statement that the price will shoot up, perhaps even double.

Lower volume, same costs.. smaller profit margin..

Besides, if we look at somewhat similar cars (i.e. low volume, specialist, sports cars that began in kit-like forms and "evolved") such as the Noble series, or even the K1 Attack, they all shot up in price once they got serious, and in K1's place double after the new owner took over...
 

rcdice

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My observations on this issue:

1. The current Viper price point is truly at the sweet spot for this type of car. The $50k SUV buyer could potentially "stretch" and buy a $86k car. The $200k exotic buyer could by two Vipers. One for the street and one for the track for the same $$. Just like the guy who won the raffle car (will soon have three).
2. The "low tech" design is a blessing and attraction for many of us. Bullet proof engine without exotic maintenance issues is what we want. Who wants to spend $5k-$10k on every trip to the dealer like Lambo and Ferrari? Not me.
3. American made and American owned is very important to many buyers. While not the sole criteria in the purchase decision, it certainly has tipped the scales towards Viper for many.
4. I know Chrysler is trying to focus on their core lines, but how can this car NOT be wildly profitable for them? 1,200 cars/yr @ $85k = $100,000,000+ a year in revenue. Plus the Halo effect. Plus the free press. Plus the additional Chrysler/Dodge purchases.
5. An American buyer, small volume, loophole to get around epa stuff, still sold and serviced through Dodge would be fine with me. Asian or Middle East buyer would be a very tough, if not impossible, sell to many in the current Viper nation.

:usa::usa::usa::usa:
 

DEKE01

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MoparMan - I have to disagree with much of what you've said.

>>(Chrysler)they are not going to sell common parts (radios, hubs, etc) to the buyer of the Viper platform at cost<<

You don't know what terms of the deal would be. A buyer could (should?) get the right to go directly to the parts suppliers.

>> the new owner of the platform will have to spend money engineering a new assembly line in a new location,<<

Not necessarily true. Chrysler probably would not want CAAP if CAAP wasn't making Viper. Does Chrysler have such a shortgae of real estate they wouldn't want to part with a small plant like CAAP?

>>all this engineering effort comes with an increased overhead because the overhead is not divided among nearly as many employees.<<

That's only true if you buy the fact that a small company can not operate more efficiently than a larger, older, more bureaucratic one. That's bull. I own a Viper because my company figured out how to profitably provide telecom for about 75% less than what AT&T and Intelsat charged. The business world is full of similar examples of the Davids being more agile and efficient than Goliaths.

>> All this adds up to a price increase for the Viper when under new ownership. It's not all as rosy as the VCA officers would have you believe. <<

Prices almost always increase over time, so you'll get no argument from me on that narrow issue. And I'll let the VCA officers defend their own statements but at VOI I heard that there are good possibilities in the future. What I did not hear is that all is perfect.

>>This is a last ditch effort by Chrysler to get something for a platform they have already decided to axe.<<

Of course Cerberus was going to explore all their options; that's what PE firms do to max their return. What ever Cerberus does, you can be sure it is something in their best interests. Shutting down a profitable line doesn't max their return when it can be sold. Unless you're some highly placed Cerberus insider, you don't know what they've decided, or even if they've decided to do anything more than find out what the market value is on a stand alone Viper brand.
 

MoparMan

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MoparMan - I have to disagree with much of what you've said.

>>(Chrysler)they are not going to sell common parts (radios, hubs, etc) to the buyer of the Viper platform at cost<<

You don't know what terms of the deal would be. A buyer could (should?) get the right to go directly to the parts suppliers.

>> the new owner of the platform will have to spend money engineering a new assembly line in a new location,<<

Not necessarily true. Chrysler probably would not want CAAP if CAAP wasn't making Viper. Does Chrysler have such a shortgae of real estate they wouldn't want to part with a small plant like CAAP?

>>all this engineering effort comes with an increased overhead because the overhead is not divided among nearly as many employees.<<

That's only true if you buy the fact that a small company can not operate more efficiently than a larger, older, more bureaucratic one. That's bull. I own a Viper because my company figured out how to profitably provide telecom for about 75% less than what AT&T and Intelsat charged. The business world is full of similar examples of the Davids being more agile and efficient than Goliaths.

>> All this adds up to a price increase for the Viper when under new ownership. It's not all as rosy as the VCA officers would have you believe. <<

Prices almost always increase over time, so you'll get no argument from me on that narrow issue. And I'll let the VCA officers defend their own statements but at VOI I heard that there are good possibilities in the future. What I did not hear is that all is perfect.

>>This is a last ditch effort by Chrysler to get something for a platform they have already decided to axe.<<

Of course Cerberus was going to explore all their options; that's what PE firms do to max their return. What ever Cerberus does, you can be sure it is something in their best interests. Shutting down a profitable line doesn't max their return when it can be sold. Unless you're some highly placed Cerberus insider, you don't know what they've decided, or even if they've decided to do anything more than find out what the market value is on a stand alone Viper brand.

1) It's still hard to believe that the new owner of the Viper platform will receive the same pricing on parts that Chrysler does from all the vendors Chrysler uses. I suppose it's possible that would be part of the deal but it's not a guarantee.

2) Chrysler is closing CAAP per their recent agreement with the UAW. If they own CAAP (rather than lease it) then a new owner would either have to buy it or lease it back from Chrysler. Either way, it represents an increased cost over the current cost basis.

3) Certainly, employee overhead costs will be lower for Chrysler than a smaller company. Dividing costs of employee burden over larger numbers typically helps mitigate the impact of these costs. A smaller company will have to look alot harder to spread these costs out.

4) I believe that prices will increase more than would be dictated by inflation if the Viper moves from Chrysler to a small company. I disagree with $180k (as indicated by the title of this thread) but certainly, $110k to $120k for a Gen V will not be out of the question.

5) As for the "rosy" statement, it's hard to say what the exact scenario is, but you don't expect Chrysler to show up at VOI.10 and announce that the Viper is f'ed if a sale of the platform doesn't go through because they've decided to axe it otherwise, do you? Similarly, you wouldn't expect a statement like that to come out of the leadership of the VCA, right? I'm not saying anyone is lying, but I am saying that Chrysler leadership may have colored the facts a little bit when discussing them with the VCA national officers.

6) You sound like you pretty much agree that Cerberus has decided to axe the Viper line and a sale of said line is icing on the cake for them. It's debatable how profitable the Viper line is for Chrysler but if you're Cerberus and you're investing money in the Viper for a 5% return on investment (just an example, not the real number) but discovered you could take that same money and invest it elsewhere for a 7.5% return wouldn't you re-allocate the funds? After all, Cerberus is in this to maximize their return on investment, not to keep us Viper fans happy.
 

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