Stability Control and my 2009 SRT crash

[Steve-Indy]

ferraritoviper ...SORRY about your incident but GLAD that you and your friend are OK!! I certainly agree with those pointing out the dangers of "shifting into second gear" in these cars in particular!! As I posted a couple of years back "...at least in MY experience...it does NOT drive like many other sports cars (XKE's, all Porsches, Lambo's, Ferrari's, Vettes)...noting one major reason is the tremendous low end torque that can spin/kill you while the unwary new driver is busy watching the tach and expecting the "danger zone" to correlate with a higher rpm as they "wind it out" ...especially on cold tires, old tires, or road surfaces that are damp or dusty."

I'm sure there are those who agree...and those who disagree with my point of view.

I would also add that there have been countless reports of similar incidents with ALL generations of Vipers...ESPECIALLY when "leaving the driveway", "entering a freeway", and "demonstrating the car to a friend". All of these situations have been posted here since the board began. Furthermore, I would say that the Gen IV SEEMS to ME to take a little more effort (and care) on shifting than our other Vipers...noting that I FIRMLY plant my left elbow into the driver's door while shifting just to avoid even the slightest unintentional steering input while accelerating and shifting...as the combo can be disastrous...and, as I age (have aged !!!), I know my reflexes just might come into play a little too late.

Hopefully, folks who read your thread will absorb the fact that dangers do exist...regardless of all of the presumed causes and "cures" for same.

I must also say that you have my compliments for posting this...as I'm not sure that very many of us would "man up" in a similar fashion!!!

 

[ferraritoviper]

You lost control of a Viper at 30 mph? Hopefully it was raining. I'd be embarrassed to post that. Invest in a good performance driving school

Maybe popped second another 5mph?... happened so fast. Dry pavement 80 deg, very slight curve. Thank you for the suggestion, but I did attend the 3d day Ferrari factory driving course in Marenello, Italy

 

[ferraritoviper]

What tires did you have if not the PS2?

Factory run flats

 

[TrackAire]

I've responded to Ferraritovipers situation in another forum when I saw pics of the crash.

Here is what I've found with the 09 (and 08's)....the diff is great, no problem.

What is the problem is the very laggy throttle response and very tall rear end gear. When shifting to second, these new cars don't have the trottle feel that every one of my other cars do. Add a cool morning (more torque, bigger hit when the powerband comes on) and any grit on the road and you might swap ends. It has nothing to do with lack of driver skill....if the trottle response is very slow to begin with and changes with temps, etc...then this is only going to happen more often.

This is not a problem on the open track since the rpm's are constantly up there. Where these cars are dangerous (yes, dangerous) is slow speed 1st to 2nd gear shifts when driving aggresively. You just can't feel the rpms build in a normal fashion and your "butt meter" is expecting the cars rpms to act like every other high performance car you've driven. It is like an on/off switch...the problem is it doesn't behave the same every time, hence it makes it very difficult to judge the cars handling attitude. When it goes bad, you can't react in time, it is sliding around you.

I know the variable valvetrain hits hard, but the driver feel to that level really *****.

The high rear gearing also gives near no compression braking when you lift at these relatively slow speeds. (do we really need a 1st gear good for 60 mph??) That disconnect from the motor to transmission to tires is the split second that s#%t can happen. Having lower rear end gears would allow you to modulate the spinning rear tires better. I can't wait to try a car out with either 3.55's or 3.73's. Just curious, I wonder what rear end gears Samuel Hubinette runs in his drifting Viper? If anyone knows, please let me know.

Heck, in an 08 or 09, an aggressive shift out of first is often over 40 mph. Now shifting into 2nd and losing the rear end may be 50 to 60 mph. Ultimately this accident is driver error...but I don't think it truly is lack of driving talent. For those of you that haven't AGGRESSIVELY driven an 08 or 09, you really need to before making judgements. So far I've done two autocrosses (total of 9 runs since I've bought the car). It has helped tremendously, but also brought out the flaws this car has at slower speed levels. I plan on doing as many autocrosses this year as possible. A Mopar computer is next, but hell, should I really have to modify a $90k car to have decent throttle response?

This really needs to be fixed by Dodge....it may come back and bite them in the butt.

Cheers,
George

 

[ferraritoviper]

You forgot to mention..."'While changing lanes'.... when shifing into second....spin out.."

Been there, done that. You learn once to keep this car pointed straight when getting on it. I just got lucky that time (seems like years ago).

Sorry about your car - really that just suc3s!
Note: In my SRT8 I can overpower my nannies, not sure if that would have saved you.

thanks...but no lane change. narrow road barely enough width for 2 cars.

 

[ferraritoviper]

Same thing happened to me in my 98 RT. To this day I don't know what caused it, cold tires, too aggressive on the throttle, oil on the road, I just don't know. **** happens. Obviously it was my fault in some manner but no matter how many times I replay it in my head I can't figure out what I did wrong. It happened very quickly, one second I was going straight the next I was going backwards and sideways over a curb and into a sign. Traction control may have prevented it, I think it would have helped. I know the many driving schools I attended didn't prevent it. Maybe it would have been worse had I not attended several multi day schools and tracked the car. Either way it went around in a heartbeat and once I was past 90 degrees I was along for the ride. My passenger was also unable to say what caused it. Fortunately no one was hurt and I didn't hit anyone else. So yes I think for the street, traction control is a help. I would still want to disable it though when I'm on the track.

Thanks for the honest reply...exactly what happened all the way around. Couldn't have whipped out quicker on ice. Well beyond driving school, which of course is under 'forced conditions'. Kudos to the huge bolsters...both me and passenger never felt anything beyond slight ricochettes(?) and a quick adios. ocourse, track is anopther world...I was not there.

 

[ferraritoviper]

Thanks. I'll wait out this thread with in the microwave.
How come I attract the attention of former Ferrari guys, newbies, the average enthusiast, the veterans, and the girls in the Chicks with Vipers thread in descending order? When all I want in life is the exact opposite?

Just busting your chops about the Ferrari thing! I suspect you nailed it on a shift to second to lay a little rubber? That's something all of us have done. The outcome is another story. You've experienced the snake-bite! Sorry to hear...

exactly!!!

 

[ferraritoviper]

very simple to control, even at 30mph, LET OFF THE GAS once it starts to spin. Go do some Viper Days before doing anything on the streets.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough...how about an instantanious(?) happening...say a millisecond(s)

 

[ferraritoviper]

Agree with it or not, a great deal of the "allure" of owning a Viper is the fact that it's just not for everyone. It remains (perhaps slightly less with the newer generations) an unadulterated sports car, rather than it's main rival the Corvette, which is far more "hybrid" (common) in it's design and marketing.

It is the unforgiving nature of the Viper that adds to it's reputation. Hard to determine whether having stability control (as a driver controlled option or not) would have saved the thread's author. There's also the argument that without any "nannies", a Viper driver is far more focused on his/her driving...which would certainly be a good thing.

Speaking for myself, I am FAR more focused knowing that that my Viper does "bite" when I don't treat it right. I enjoy that "threat" as a driver. I also enjoy it's lack of compromise. In the end, despite the lack of sentiment, you knew what you were getting into when you bought a Viper. Enjoy it for what it IS rather than what it's not! ...or don't.

Good post! I blew it, knew the potential problems...although after the fact...bought on a whim, never investigating other than a R&T review...wanted some good old USA muscle. I deserved what I got, but ESC (which I assumed It had it) would have stopped it in a heartbeat, imo, based on my 2004 Modena experiences. experiences

 

[Mopar488]

My 2000 GTS was very uncontrollable when you punched it, my 96 GTS was not as bad. My 08 seems very controllable, almost boring compared to the 2000 which almost put me over a cliff one night with cold tires. The main thing everybody has to remember: LET THE TIRES WARM UP AT LEAST 10-15 MILES BEFORE YOU GET INTO IT, BECAUSE WHEN A VIPER STARTS PUTTING THAT TORQUE DOWN... SECOND THING: NEVER FORGET-YOU ARE DRIVING A VIPER.

 

[ferraritoviper]

Ferraritoviper:
Please provide more detail. Were you switching lanes, wheel slightly turned......
I got bite in my first viper. rear stepped out on my and I tried to over correct and hit a curb with the driver side front. It all happened so quick. the car responded so quick and strong that from what I remember, I couldnt take my foot off the accelerator quick enough. i was also traveling around 30. The curb actually saved me from hitting cars in the opposite lane. I have a post on it from back in 2007.

As above, never 'switched lanes'...there were no lanes. I know the handling routine guys...the driving school doesn't teach you what to do in a milliseconds...only the F1 has that abiltiy. Never had time to react...as i said before, couldn't have spun worse/quicker on ice. I just held the wheel, completely relaxed myself and knew i was gone

 

[ferraritoviper]

Don't the 09 vipers come with PS2s? If you did this at 30mph on a 2nd-3rd shift you shouldn't be driving any car with over 50hp. Traction control is not the problem.

The problem is Driver Error!

Come with factory run flats, due to no spare tire...some govt regulation. found out the hard way...

 

[Cop Magnet]

very simple to control, even at 30mph, LET OFF THE GAS once it starts to spin.

Very simple solution here. You LIFT on the throttle when you lose traction.

..................

 

[ferraritoviper]

Remember that the original poster did say he got on the accelerator aggressively. All I'm suggesting is that when he lost traction, his torque level was way up there and counter-steering might have got him out of out of trouble better than backing off and braking. And it might not. Braking surely didn't. But I don't really know how much room he had to play with. Or his skill level. We all know that the Viper's legendary torque is something else.

I'd also like to point out another thing I have seen in some drivers who drive with a very stiff grip. When they slam the gate and shift aggressively, their body transfers some of that movement into rotating the steering wheel. An aggressive 1-2 shift causes the steering to go right, while an aggressive 2-3 shift causes the steering to go left. That causes a clockwise spin for a 1-2 shift and an anti-clockwise spin for a 2-3 shift. I wonder if the original poster (RCK) would tell us which way he spun and if this might have been a factor.

Also, this time of the year there are a lot of leaves on the ground. A body shop friend of mine told me that he gets a lot more business in fall because of the leaves. Loss of traction is common and leads to guardrail incidents around corners, t-bone incidents at stop signs and good old rear-ending due to the reduced braking distance. Be safe and read the warning signs.

No leaves, ideal conditions, 2 mins on cold tires, slight curve/ very slight uneven pave...vicious torque, got what I desreved...but the speed at which this happened is mind blowing...please take my word for it. I'm ESC add on if not totaled...or if so, there is a new Z06 (switched ESC of course) in my future, repainted Candy Apple Red, withe white candy apple stripes to Viper specs!!!

 

[Mopar488]

Only the 2008 and up, but Busa's are much wilder than Vipers, as are ZX14's (of which I am on my 2nd one now...) and only have 2 wheels...

I am not sure how many Vipers you have owned, but I have had 3 and driven and ridden other Vipers as well and several hot bikes including my own Busa. I am here to tell you I have had some wild Viper rides as well as Busa rides and either one can be as terrifying as the other. I have not ran my 08 hard, but I rode an 08 on the track at VIR and was shocked at how fast it was.

 

[Mopar488]

Come with factory run flats, due to no spare tire...some govt regulation. found out the hard way...

My 08 has PS2s. Did Dodge go back to runflats for the 09? Something does not sound right.

 

[ferraritoviper]

It's unfortunate to read about the accident, glad nobody was hurt.

I have some basic questions.. (disregarding the actual event).

Did you buy the car new?
Did the dealership prepare you with any information regarding the unique performance attributes of a Viper?
Your id indicates you had a Ferrari, what year / model was it?

Many times people who purchase a Viper for the first time do not realize the amount of low rpm torque. I would also have to say that it can be irresponsible for a manufacturer to pass on a set of keys to a new car without proper awareness training of some sort, especially for a car like a Viper. It's unfortunate, but it happens, there are drivers who push the pedal too early. The VCA has been doing a great job warning first Viper owners of not getting bit, perhaps Chrysler should mandate a course provided or designed by the VCA.

Just a thought..

Regards,
Mike

Bought new at Dodge Dealer in Danbury, CT....trucked up from a dealer in Philadelphia with 20 miles on it May 09, as Chrysler could give no date on manufacture.

No, the dealer never said anything about the car, except that it was very fast. I have a 2004 Ferrari 360 Modena (coupe) Black over Rosa, factory ordered to my specs.

Yes, the F is a very high revver vs V...but honestly, I have nobody to blame but myself...I'm not a rookie. only had 1500 miles on it, but enough to know this is a dangerous ride. My whole point here, is that ESC is a must on the new Vipers, only for safety sake. It is always on unless to delibertly turn it off. As for the original Gen1/2 etc., owners that ship is out to sea...they are from another planet, and if I was one of them, I'd be right with them.

 

[dtenney]

I am surprised the tires would even spin in 2nd gear at 30mph, I previously owned an 07 Z06 and that car would spin the Eagle F1 tires far more than the Viper. I felt the Z06 had more oversteer than the Viper. Also do not trust the Z06 stability to save the car from going sideways. The first time my wife drove our Z06 she was turning left from a light, floored the car in 1st gear, and went straight sideways, almost hitting the curb then swerving back across 2 lanes and almost hitting oncoming traffic. Needless to say the stability control was not able to keep up, she basically went across two lanes of traffic twice before stopping the car and lucky the road was wide.
I find the PS2 tires on the 08 Viper are great once warm, when cold they tend to tire hop, but not as badly as the PSC tires on the ACRs.

-David

 

[ViperTony]

I deserved what I got, but ESC (which I assumed It had it) would have stopped it in a heartbeat, imo

When the dealer sold you the Viper, were you led to believe it had ESC/DSC or some type of traction control?!?

 

[ferraritoviper]

So would have not putting it on that day.

There is no proof traction control would have saved a thing...nothing, nada. That arguement is mute.

shoulda coulda woulda can be debated all day.

If you don't like the viper because it doesn't have TC, don't. If Dodge thinks that's a problem maybe they will add it. My decision to buy a Viper over a Z06 wasn't about TC. It wasn't even part of the thought. TC isn't the end all save all. Using your head is much more important.

OK...my only proof is my driving the 360 in extreme forced situations. It works...millisecond(s). I LOVE the Viper...love my life and and those of others. But you are right, my head was buried up my ass....

 

[ferraritoviper]

ferraritoviper ...SORRY about your incident but GLAD that you and your friend are OK!! I certainly agree with those pointing out the dangers of "shifting into second gear" in these cars in particular!! As I posted a couple of years back "...at least in MY experience...it does NOT drive like many other sports cars (XKE's, all Porsches, Lambo's, Ferrari's, Vettes)...noting one major reason is the tremendous low end torque that can spin/kill you while the unwary new driver is busy watching the tach and expecting the "danger zone" to correlate with a higher rpm as they "wind it out" ...especially on cold tires, old tires, or road surfaces that are damp or dusty."

I'm sure there are those who agree...and those who disagree with my point of view.

I would also add that there have been countless reports of similar incidents with ALL generations of Vipers...ESPECIALLY when "leaving the driveway", "entering a freeway", and "demonstrating the car to a friend". All of these situations have been posted here since the board began. Furthermore, I would say that the Gen IV SEEMS to ME to take a little more effort (and care) on shifting than our other Vipers...noting that I FIRMLY plant my left elbow into the driver's door while shifting just to avoid even the slightest unintentional steering input while accelerating and shifting...as the combo can be disastrous...and, as I age (have aged !!!), I know my reflexes just might come into play a little too late.

Hopefully, folks who read your thread will absorb the fact that dangers do exist...regardless of all of the presumed causes and "cures" for same.

I must also say that you have my compliments for posting this...as I'm not sure that very many of us would "man up" in a similar fashion!!!

thanks for being cool and gracious Venom...your 4th paragraph says it all.

 

[ferraritoviper]

My 08 has PS2s. Did Dodge go back to runflats for the 09? Something does not sound right.

they are on mine!

 

[ferraritoviper]

When the dealer sold you the Viper, were you led to believe it had ESC/DSC or some type of traction control?!?

No, I never asked. Having many fast rides over the recent years...especailly a HIGH PERFORMANCE cars in the $100k range, I assumed it wold be an automatic, like ABS or power door locks, etc.. Yes, the Ferrari is an expensive exotic, but even my 2009 CL550 Merc has ESC with an off button. Anyway, like in golf...it's not the fiddle, its the fiddler

 

[cash84]

they are on mine!

I guess you got ripped off. As far as I know, 03 to 06 had run flats.


This what I don't get about people that wants the nanny stuff....WHY DID YOU BUY THE VIPER IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!

 

[Mopar488]

With all due respect, your car came from the factory with PS2s. I just looked at the Dodge website and confirmed it. My 08 has PS2s and the little inflater in the back. Confirm what tires you have by looking on the sidewall and let us know.

 

[dtenney]

If it's an 09 Viper than it does not have run flats from the factory.... this has been covered many times, the engineers retuned the suspension for the PS2 tires. Only two tires come from the factory on 08/09 Vipers - PS2s and Pilot Sport Cups(PSC)

 

[dtenney]

No, I never asked. Having many fast rides over the recent years...especailly a HIGH PERFORMANCE cars in the $100k range, I assumed it wold be an automatic, like ABS or power door locks, etc.. Yes, the Ferrari is an expensive exotic, but even my 2009 CL550 Merc has ESC with an off button. Anyway, like in golf...it's not the fiddle, its the fiddler

Have you noticed on the Mercedes that even when the stability control is "off" the system still intervenes if you push the car hard. I never liked that about my E55 AMG. The best stability control system I have used was a Porsche 911, I always felt the system worked but was not overly intrusive. Also AWD cars make a fun alternative to stability control in my opinion, especially in rain/snow/ice conditions.

-David

 

[texas_venom]

55K worth of damage at 30mph??????? What did you go off a cliff?

This car definatel deserves your attention at all times. ESPECIALLY if you are going to get into the accelorator "a tad bit too agreesively". If you are not straight (and it doesnt sound like you were) its going to happen. Never happened to me though... but I was always careful.

 

[TrackAire]

FerraritoViper,

You've really got to check something out here...if the dealer sold the car to you as "new" and installed runflats on it, you may have a case against them for putting a non spec tire on a vehicle tuned for the PS2's.

I'd double check that they are in fact runflats. If they are, you might be getting free repairs.

Good luck,
George

 

[ViperTony]

No, I never asked. Having many fast rides over the recent years...especailly a HIGH PERFORMANCE cars in the $100k range, I assumed it wold be an automatic, like ABS or power door locks, etc.. Yes, the Ferrari is an expensive exotic, but even my 2009 CL550 Merc has ESC with an off button. Anyway, like in golf...it's not the fiddle, its the fiddler

Well, one thing is for certain, this ***** and I feel for you. Sorry to hear about the wreck but at least you walked away from it. I asked about the dealer because there are some dealers that just don't know squat about the Viper...and will say anything to make a sale.