VIPER BAZ UK
Enthusiast
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
LOOKING GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOOKING GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My Creampuff NA Build
- Thread starter ViperTony
- Start date
eucharistos
Enthusiast
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
thems are purdy
Heads are on the way! A few pics of the heads from the man himself, Greg Good:
thems are purdy
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
I started installing all of the Greg Good goodies he quickly shipped out to me and the fun part of putting it all together has finally started! New camshaft went in like butter thanks to a few great tips from the Wizard.
The first tip he gave me involved creating enough clearance to get the old cam out and the new cam in. I needed to clear the front brace and radiator. Chuck had me remove the transmission brace and let the transmission drop a few inches which tilted the engine up. I also jacked up the engine a bit and the angle/clearance was perfect. I had loosend the crossbrace but it really wasn't necessary:
The other tip Chuck gave me involved using the longest 7/16" - 14 bolt I can find to help leverage the camshaft. It's heavy and I didn't want it banging around the journals while installing it into the block. I used a 6" bolt in the camshaft which made installation pretty easy:
The camshaft is a direct bolt-in, i.e. no need for an adjustable timing chain, keyways, etc. It's a matter of aligning the timing marks between the timing chain sprocket and the crankshaft sprocket. Timing chain mark should be at the 6 o'clock position while the crankshaft timing mark should be at the 12 o'clock position using a straight edge to align the two marks via a centerline:
Getting to the lifters/head gaskets and heads tonight (finally).
I started installing all of the Greg Good goodies he quickly shipped out to me and the fun part of putting it all together has finally started! New camshaft went in like butter thanks to a few great tips from the Wizard.
The first tip he gave me involved creating enough clearance to get the old cam out and the new cam in. I needed to clear the front brace and radiator. Chuck had me remove the transmission brace and let the transmission drop a few inches which tilted the engine up. I also jacked up the engine a bit and the angle/clearance was perfect. I had loosend the crossbrace but it really wasn't necessary:
The other tip Chuck gave me involved using the longest 7/16" - 14 bolt I can find to help leverage the camshaft. It's heavy and I didn't want it banging around the journals while installing it into the block. I used a 6" bolt in the camshaft which made installation pretty easy:
The camshaft is a direct bolt-in, i.e. no need for an adjustable timing chain, keyways, etc. It's a matter of aligning the timing marks between the timing chain sprocket and the crankshaft sprocket. Timing chain mark should be at the 6 o'clock position while the crankshaft timing mark should be at the 12 o'clock position using a straight edge to align the two marks via a centerline:
Getting to the lifters/head gaskets and heads tonight (finally).
Last edited:
AFL in NJ
Enthusiast
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
Is there a complete roller cam/lifter/rocker arm upgrade for the GEN II Viper? Does it make any real HP difference?
Regards,
Aaron
Is there a complete roller cam/lifter/rocker arm upgrade for the GEN II Viper? Does it make any real HP difference?
Regards,
Aaron
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
So, here's an update. (Long). Naturally, as soon as I get into middle of a Viper mod work gets the best of me
. That delayed me about 2 weeks but I finally got back to the build. So after installing the head on the driver's side, checking for push rod length ( there will be a detailed wite up on this for T&D rockers) it turns out I can use my existing 7.6" trend push rods.
I moved on to installing the passenger side lifters and head. However, I ran into a snag (literally) with the lifters. It turned out that 5 of the new lifters were binding while I tried to install them into the lifter bores. These 5 lifters would not fit any of the 10 bores on the passenger side and/or were just too tight which is not good. Long story short, Greg Good mailed me 5 new lifters and they went in like butter. They are the same lifters from the same batch. I suspect that the 5 suspect lifters either got nicked during shipping and/or I 'dropped' them in an oil container to soak. THANK Greg Good for the quick turnaround.
HOWEVER, before I bolted on the passenger head I had to resolve one item that was bugging me. That is the intake center line I calculated after installing the new cam. What bothered me about it is that I never got 109 degrees consistently. It varied between 109 and 114 at times. At first I chalked it up to my POS degree wheel (more on that later) and wrote it off. I also had a few tuners tell me not to worry about it because they "never degree my cams", "there's a little play in the timing chain, it's normal" or
"you're doing TDC wrong".
So I took Greg Good's advice, and procedure, and decided to double-check TDC and Center Line based on the #2 cylinder. This new camshaft has an advertised center line of 109 degrees. Being paranoid about this, I ordered a new cam degree kit. I ordered this Heads Off Degree Kit from Power House. For the record, they make the Comp Cams kits.
Here's the procedure I used for finding TDC on the #2 Cylinder:
Step 1: Installed my degree wheel. Installed my dial indicator on the #2 piston and rotate the crank clockwise until the piston achieved maximum lift. At this point, I zero'd my dial indicator:
I also set my degree wheel to zero by moving the degree wheel to zero (TDC):
Step 2: I rotated the crank counter-clockwise until the piston was down .100":
I then rotated the crank clockwise .050" before zero (max lift):
At this point I looked at my degree wheel to get a reading which was 11.5 degrees BTDC:
Step 3: I rotated the engine clockwise until the dial indicator read .100" on the other side of TDC and came back up to .050" before zero (max lift):
At this point I looked at my degree wheel to get a reading which was 11 degrees:
Doing simple math 11.5 - 11 = .5. My wheel was off .5 degrees. I adjusted the wheel and repeated this procedure until I achieve 11.5 degrees on either side of TDC. At this point, the wheel/pointer was set correctly for TDC.
Now that TDC has been established, I need to check the center line of the intake lobe:
Step 1: I installed my dial indicator with an extension and perpendicular to the intake lifter on the #2 cylinder. I used the solid edge on top of the lifter:
Step 2: I rotated the engine clockwise until I achieved maximum lift on the dial indicator. At this point I zero'd my dial indicator.
Step 3: I rotated the engine counter-clockwise until lifter was down .100". I then rotated the crank clockwise until the dial indicator read .020" before zero (max lift):
I checked the degree wheel and got 87.5 degrees:
Step 4: I rotated the engine clockwise until the dial indicator reached zero and down to .020". I stopped on .020" and took a reading from the degree wheel which was 142.5 degrees:
Step 5: Using simple math to calculate centerline: 87.5 + 142.5 = 230/2 = 115 degrees.
My center line calculated at 115 degrees which means the cam is ******** by 6 degrees. I've performed this method, from scratch, at least a dozen times today and I consistently achieve 115 degrees.
This obviously confirmed my suspicion that something was off. For the record, there's only one way to install this cam with the stock timing sprocket which is lining up the timing marks between the timing chain sprocket (6 o'clock position) and crank sprocket (12 o'clock position). The cam is drilled for one bolt and to fit the dowel hole on the timing chain sprocket.
So assuming I did this TDC and Center Line correctly I need to advance the cam 6 degrees to achieve 109 centerline. Greg has offered to take my sprocket and install an off-set bushing to achieve this. (he's the man).
But until I find out WHY this cam is ******** 6 degrees I will not rest. I'm thinking it's one of the following:
(1.) I screwed up somewhere.
(2.) The new cam has the dowel pin located in the wrong (********) position.
(3.) My stock cam was ******** 6 degrees (i never bothered to check the stock cam center line so I'll never know and I don't feel like swapping out the cams to check). But if this were true then my Viper would run like dog sh*t because 6 degrees is a lot.
As a sanity check, I measured the Intake valve opening at 7 degrees BTDC and the Exhaust Valve opening at 55 BBDC (per the cam spec card). I ended up with the Intake opening at 1 degree BTDC and the exhaust valve opening at 49 degrees BBDC. This seems to confirm the 6 degree anomaly.
I thought I'd post this to see if anyone can find what I did wrong and/or confirm my findings. I talked with/emailed Greg's ear off about this so I don't want to bother him anymore. It's amazing he's put up with me so far.
So, here's an update. (Long). Naturally, as soon as I get into middle of a Viper mod work gets the best of me
. That delayed me about 2 weeks but I finally got back to the build. So after installing the head on the driver's side, checking for push rod length ( there will be a detailed wite up on this for T&D rockers) it turns out I can use my existing 7.6" trend push rods.I moved on to installing the passenger side lifters and head. However, I ran into a snag (literally) with the lifters. It turned out that 5 of the new lifters were binding while I tried to install them into the lifter bores. These 5 lifters would not fit any of the 10 bores on the passenger side and/or were just too tight which is not good. Long story short, Greg Good mailed me 5 new lifters and they went in like butter. They are the same lifters from the same batch. I suspect that the 5 suspect lifters either got nicked during shipping and/or I 'dropped' them in an oil container to soak. THANK Greg Good for the quick turnaround.
HOWEVER, before I bolted on the passenger head I had to resolve one item that was bugging me. That is the intake center line I calculated after installing the new cam. What bothered me about it is that I never got 109 degrees consistently. It varied between 109 and 114 at times. At first I chalked it up to my POS degree wheel (more on that later) and wrote it off. I also had a few tuners tell me not to worry about it because they "never degree my cams"
, "there's a little play in the timing chain, it's normal" or "you're doing TDC wrong".
So I took Greg Good's advice, and procedure, and decided to double-check TDC and Center Line based on the #2 cylinder. This new camshaft has an advertised center line of 109 degrees. Being paranoid about this, I ordered a new cam degree kit. I ordered this Heads Off Degree Kit from Power House. For the record, they make the Comp Cams kits.
Here's the procedure I used for finding TDC on the #2 Cylinder:
Step 1: Installed my degree wheel. Installed my dial indicator on the #2 piston and rotate the crank clockwise until the piston achieved maximum lift. At this point, I zero'd my dial indicator:
I also set my degree wheel to zero by moving the degree wheel to zero (TDC):
Step 2: I rotated the crank counter-clockwise until the piston was down .100":
I then rotated the crank clockwise .050" before zero (max lift):
At this point I looked at my degree wheel to get a reading which was 11.5 degrees BTDC:
Step 3: I rotated the engine clockwise until the dial indicator read .100" on the other side of TDC and came back up to .050" before zero (max lift):
At this point I looked at my degree wheel to get a reading which was 11 degrees:
Doing simple math 11.5 - 11 = .5. My wheel was off .5 degrees. I adjusted the wheel and repeated this procedure until I achieve 11.5 degrees on either side of TDC. At this point, the wheel/pointer was set correctly for TDC.
Now that TDC has been established, I need to check the center line of the intake lobe:
Step 1: I installed my dial indicator with an extension and perpendicular to the intake lifter on the #2 cylinder. I used the solid edge on top of the lifter:
Step 2: I rotated the engine clockwise until I achieved maximum lift on the dial indicator. At this point I zero'd my dial indicator.
Step 3: I rotated the engine counter-clockwise until lifter was down .100". I then rotated the crank clockwise until the dial indicator read .020" before zero (max lift):
I checked the degree wheel and got 87.5 degrees:
Step 4: I rotated the engine clockwise until the dial indicator reached zero and down to .020". I stopped on .020" and took a reading from the degree wheel which was 142.5 degrees:
Step 5: Using simple math to calculate centerline: 87.5 + 142.5 = 230/2 = 115 degrees.
My center line calculated at 115 degrees which means the cam is ******** by 6 degrees. I've performed this method, from scratch, at least a dozen times today and I consistently achieve 115 degrees.
This obviously confirmed my suspicion that something was off
. For the record, there's only one way to install this cam with the stock timing sprocket which is lining up the timing marks between the timing chain sprocket (6 o'clock position) and crank sprocket (12 o'clock position). The cam is drilled for one bolt and to fit the dowel hole on the timing chain sprocket.So assuming I did this TDC and Center Line correctly I need to advance the cam 6 degrees to achieve 109 centerline. Greg has offered to take my sprocket and install an off-set bushing to achieve this. (he's the man).
But until I find out WHY this cam is ******** 6 degrees I will not rest. I'm thinking it's one of the following:
(1.) I screwed up somewhere.
(2.) The new cam has the dowel pin located in the wrong (********) position.
(3.) My stock cam was ******** 6 degrees (i never bothered to check the stock cam center line so I'll never know and I don't feel like swapping out the cams to check). But if this were true then my Viper would run like dog sh*t because 6 degrees is a lot.
As a sanity check, I measured the Intake valve opening at 7 degrees BTDC and the Exhaust Valve opening at 55 BBDC (per the cam spec card). I ended up with the Intake opening at 1 degree BTDC and the exhaust valve opening at 49 degrees BBDC. This seems to confirm the 6 degree anomaly.
I thought I'd post this to see if anyone can find what I did wrong and/or confirm my findings. I talked with/emailed Greg's ear off about this so I don't want to bother him anymore. It's amazing he's put up with me so far.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
If I recall past posts, Greg has recommended in the past to get 6 degrees advance ground into some of his custom N/A grinds. Maybe the cam grinder got it mixed up and ground six degrees of retard vs advance? The Comp Cam I'm getting made I asked for just 3 degrees advance to be ground in.
If I recall past posts, Greg has recommended in the past to get 6 degrees advance ground into some of his custom N/A grinds. Maybe the cam grinder got it mixed up and ground six degrees of retard vs advance? The Comp Cam I'm getting made I asked for just 3 degrees advance to be ground in.
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
Actually, this cam has 4 degrees of advance ground into it. I'll post specs today. Just odd that it's off, at all, let alone 6 degrees because this is supposed to be a drop in cam. I'm glad I decided to check center line before buttoning everything up. But I sill need to know what's causing the 6 degrees retard.
Actually, this cam has 4 degrees of advance ground into it. I'll post specs today. Just odd that it's off, at all, let alone 6 degrees because this is supposed to be a drop in cam. I'm glad I decided to check center line before buttoning everything up. But I sill need to know what's causing the 6 degrees retard.
britospeed
Enthusiast
- Joined
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Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
I've had plenty of new cam come ground wrong. Good job on doing the install properly and checking the cam.
I've had plenty of new cam come ground wrong. Good job on doing the install properly and checking the cam.
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
If the cam was ground wrong then I think everything else would be way off such as lobe seperation, duration, lift, etc. I'm beginning to wonder if the timing chain is a factor.
If the cam was ground wrong then I think everything else would be way off such as lobe seperation, duration, lift, etc. I'm beginning to wonder if the timing chain is a factor.
britospeed
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Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
If the chain was streched then the "dots" would not line up the same after changing rotation direction.
If the chain was streched then the "dots" would not line up the same after changing rotation direction.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
When I pulled mine down last month, I was surprised with the slack in the timing chain (41k miles). Shop manual indicates 1/8th inch play and I know it was atleast double that amount. Got my cam the other day. Indicated 111 degree centerline on the cam card. 114 LSA. I had asked for 3 degrees advance to be ground in but I see no reference to that fact on the card. I guess I need to pick up a stock set of timing gears/chain since it is a single bolt OEM design like yours.
When I pulled mine down last month, I was surprised with the slack in the timing chain (41k miles). Shop manual indicates 1/8th inch play and I know it was atleast double that amount. Got my cam the other day. Indicated 111 degree centerline on the cam card. 114 LSA. I had asked for 3 degrees advance to be ground in but I see no reference to that fact on the card. I guess I need to pick up a stock set of timing gears/chain since it is a single bolt OEM design like yours.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
I put a Cloyes "true double roller" in a Ford 460 I built in college and after about 3k miles the darn thing broke. I have no idea as to why and I went with a generic timing chain at that point and that lasted until I sold the truck several years later. SO every time I see a reference to Cloyes, I think back to that event. Like I said, no idea as to why it broke but it did...ate some pushrods...and was replaced with another brand. Cloyes has a great reputation and product line, but I can't get past/move on from my experience using one of their products.
I put a Cloyes "true double roller" in a Ford 460 I built in college and after about 3k miles the darn thing broke. I have no idea as to why and I went with a generic timing chain at that point and that lasted until I sold the truck several years later. SO every time I see a reference to Cloyes, I think back to that event. Like I said, no idea as to why it broke but it did...ate some pushrods...and was replaced with another brand. Cloyes has a great reputation and product line, but I can't get past/move on from my experience using one of their products.
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
Greg is going to bush my cam sprocket to get to correct centerline. I followed the procedure in the service manual for checking the timing chain slop and it's not as bad as I thought. I'm within the 1/8" tolerance. Soon as I get my sprocket back this week everything will be buttoned up, finally.
Greg is going to bush my cam sprocket to get to correct centerline. I followed the procedure in the service manual for checking the timing chain slop and it's not as bad as I thought. I'm within the 1/8" tolerance. Soon as I get my sprocket back this week everything will be buttoned up, finally.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
Getting a stock replacement set from Roe Racing as I type.
Getting a stock replacement set from Roe Racing as I type.
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
Sprocket came back, installed it and now my centerline is much better at 110. We're good to go. Now it's just a mad dash to put everything back together. But I am waiting for my powder coater to finish my intake/valve covers. Since I pulled the injectors out for powder coating I decided to send the injectors to Tony Armour for his injector service.
Sprocket came back, installed it and now my centerline is much better at 110. We're good to go. Now it's just a mad dash to put everything back together. But I am waiting for my powder coater to finish my intake/valve covers. Since I pulled the injectors out for powder coating I decided to send the injectors to Tony Armour for his injector service.
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
Just got my timing chain set up but the rods are on backorder until 22 Jun ..*****.
Just got my timing chain set up but the rods are on backorder until 22 Jun ..*****.
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
LOL. Well, while I'm waiting on powder coating parts, I sent my injectors to Tony Armour (Armour Racing) for his injector cleaning service. I didn't think the injectors had issues or even needed the cleaning at ~!7K miles but I figured this is going to be the last time, for a long time, before I pull the injectors out again and as someone here likes to say "might as well" so....
Tony is a VCA member and provides this service. Turnaround was really quick. He found no issues and flowed them for me. Here's the results:
a crazy lil bird told me they are done being prepped and waiting on powder...
LOL. Well, while I'm waiting on powder coating parts, I sent my injectors to Tony Armour (Armour Racing) for his injector cleaning service. I didn't think the injectors had issues or even needed the cleaning at ~!7K miles but I figured this is going to be the last time, for a long time, before I pull the injectors out again and as someone here likes to say "might as well"
so....Tony is a VCA member and provides this service. Turnaround was really quick. He found no issues and flowed them for me. Here's the results:
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
SO what kind of lifters are those? Snap ring retainer and they seem to sit real low in the bore. Is the alignment bar still used? May just be the photo and angle, but they sure look like they sit down in the bore a lot more than the OEM ones.
SO what kind of lifters are those? Snap ring retainer and they seem to sit real low in the bore. Is the alignment bar still used? May just be the photo and angle, but they sure look like they sit down in the bore a lot more than the OEM ones.
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
They are non-bleed down lifters that GG stocks for this type of build. The overall length of this lifter vs. the stock lifter is about the same. But these new lifters do sit slightly lower because the base circle of the new cam is smaller since it has more lift than the stock cam.
Speaking of cam specs:
They are non-bleed down lifters that GG stocks for this type of build. The overall length of this lifter vs. the stock lifter is about the same. But these new lifters do sit slightly lower because the base circle of the new cam is smaller since it has more lift than the stock cam.
Speaking of cam specs:
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
I'll have to post my cam card just for comparisons. I was limited to .600 lift since my heads are not as **** as yours!! I added some lift and area under the curve on the exhaust side since the blower works the equation a bit better on the intake side.
I'll have to post my cam card just for comparisons. I was limited to .600 lift since my heads are not as **** as yours!! I added some lift and area under the curve on the exhaust side since the blower works the equation a bit better on the intake side.
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
My powder coater is waiting on powder coating to come in (hopefully today). I can't wait to fire up this engine! My powder coater told me "a LOT of soot came out of your intake. Very dirty". I noticed even around my TB openings that there was a layer of crap on them. The engine only has 17K miles on it. Oil consumption has been nil. I'm wondering if this is being caused by excessive blow by, dirty filters or both. I noticed there was some fresh oil in the runners when I took off the intake but nothing out of the ordinary. I think I'll slap on a catch can while I'm waiting.
My powder coater is waiting on powder coating to come in (hopefully today). I can't wait to fire up this engine! My powder coater told me "a LOT of soot came out of your intake. Very dirty". I noticed even around my TB openings that there was a layer of crap on them. The engine only has 17K miles on it. Oil consumption has been nil. I'm wondering if this is being caused by excessive blow by, dirty filters or both. I noticed there was some fresh oil in the runners when I took off the intake but nothing out of the ordinary. I think I'll slap on a catch can while I'm waiting.
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
HA! Well, a picture ferry, let's call him "Phil" sent me pics of my valve covers during their powder coating process last night. Spoke to Russ today, I'm bringing him BBQ Monday for lunch but it looks like I'll get the parts back next week. How is it you can snag pics of my parts and I can't?
In the meantime, I decided to put in a crankcase breather for the PCV valve and a seperate catch can for the valve covers. After doing some research, I decided that I didn't want to vent the CCV valve to the catch can and break whatever vacuum exists between the valve covers and CCV orifice. I came across this for the PCV and will retrofit it to the Viper. It's supposed to seperate the CCV vapors yet not cause vaccum leaks. I already have a catch can for the valve covers.
Other than the cans, I've been washing the undercarriage with soap and water. Running out of things to do but thankfully Russ will be done next week.
Can't wait to see the finished product!
HA! Well, a picture ferry, let's call him "Phil" sent me pics of my valve covers during their powder coating process last night. Spoke to Russ today, I'm bringing him BBQ Monday for lunch but it looks like I'll get the parts back next week. How is it you can snag pics of my parts and I can't?
In the meantime, I decided to put in a crankcase breather for the PCV valve and a seperate catch can for the valve covers. After doing some research, I decided that I didn't want to vent the CCV valve to the catch can and break whatever vacuum exists between the valve covers and CCV orifice. I came across this for the PCV and will retrofit it to the Viper. It's supposed to seperate the CCV vapors yet not cause vaccum leaks. I already have a catch can for the valve covers.Other than the cans, I've been washing the undercarriage with soap and water. Running out of things to do but thankfully Russ will be done next week.
Can't wait to see the finished product!
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
Finally had a day to get her buttoned up. I fired up her and DAMN I love that Greg Good cam
. Sitting in the Viper, listening to the valves overlap and feeling the Viper rockin'...life is good. here's a little sound clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL_yKI2nm8c
Here's another sound clip taken from the edge of my driveway. My neighbor's living room is about 15 feet behind me. Before this project, he told me his living room would shake when I started the Viper...I'm betting his living room dances now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY3peoKiYaQ
I think I have some exhaust leaks around the header flanges that I need to resolve.
Finally had a day to get her buttoned up. I fired up her and DAMN I love that Greg Good cam
. Sitting in the Viper, listening to the valves overlap and feeling the Viper rockin'...life is good. here's a little sound clip:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL_yKI2nm8c
Here's another sound clip taken from the edge of my driveway. My neighbor's living room is about 15 feet behind me. Before this project, he told me his living room would shake when I started the Viper...I'm betting his living room dances now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY3peoKiYaQ
I think I have some exhaust leaks around the header flanges that I need to resolve.
Last edited:
VIPER BAZ UK
Enthusiast
GOOD JOB TONY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dyno tuning this week (Friday). Track the following week. Will post results.
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