Thread: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

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  1. #1

    Default Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    First, I wish the trans had been moved to the rear. Either by using GMs approach of modifying a four wheel drive trans and mounting it in front of the rear axel or the Ford GT approach of using a true trans axel. Either would help the weight distribution and foot well space.

    Second, I wish that DI had been included in this efort. Even if all the gains in efficiency went to economy and not power this time around.

    Third, The Viper that we see is NOT the finished product. Still a lot of development work going on. Minor tweeks but still tweeks none the less.

    Fourth, A lot was accomplished with a small budget. Hats off to one and all.

    Fifth, There's a lot to the style that is not immediately obvious at first glance. Staring at the pics over and over again is not a dull exercise. By the way, the car appears very touchable. There's some passion in the design. Bland it is NOT.


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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    This can't be a serious post.
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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Quote Originally Posted by I Bin Therbefor View Post
    First, I wish the trans had been moved to the rear. Either by using GMs approach of modifying a four wheel drive trans and mounting it in front of the rear axel or the Ford GT approach of using a true trans axel. Either would help the weight distribution and foot well space.

    Second, I wish that DI had been included in this efort. Even if all the gains in efficiency went to economy and not power this time around.

    Third, The Viper that we see is NOT the finished product. Still a lot of development work going on. Minor tweeks but still tweeks none the less.

    Fourth, A lot was accomplished with a small budget. Hats off to one and all.

    Fifth, There's a lot to the style that is not immediately obvious at first glance. Staring at the pics over and over again is not a dull exercise. By the way, the car appears very touchable. There's some passion in the design. Bland it is NOT.

    Exactly how much weight do you think needs to be on the rear tires? Vipers have always had a rear weight bias. I don't even know where to begin on this post. I'm with Chuck, is this a joke?

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    Oooooooooo K.....

  5. #5

    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    No joke. Let's take it one at a time.

    According to Gilles, the show cars sits lower than the street car will. Again, according to him, it will not sit as high as the yellow Viper shown on several threads. Further, Gilles says the aero testing is not finished although most of it is centered on the under parts of the car. Aero testing usually results in some shape changes. Further, the hood aero testing on both hoods is not completed which may result in some minor changes.

    Five preproduction cars have been built as of the latest magazine articles. That process usuallly results in some minor changes in material or shapes of some parts. Preproduction testing is on going, again a source of changes, not all of which will be visible to the eye. As the suppliers change from prototype parts to production parts, there will be additional changes. This process of testing and change is very intense at this point in the cars' development. The car does have several months of development left before production starts. when true production starts there is usually a flury of minor but important changes that result.

    The viper is a work in process and that's a good thing.

    Further, the GTS-R race car shown in NY is a show car. According to the VP of Riley Technologies, that car was built specifically for the NY show, the two race cars have not been built as of a couple of weeks ago.

    As to moving the trans to the rear, the GTS-R moves the trans to the rear and substitutes an Xtrac unit. The new Viper has a slightly more front weight bias than the old car; the final result hasn't been completely set as of yet. Getting for the car static weight to the rear does a whole lot of good things when the car is under dynamic loading. That's why the battery is in the trunk. One more thing as to trans, Gilles is on record for wanting an auto at some point in the future.
    Last edited by I Bin Therbefor; 04-29-2012 at 05:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    GTS-R =racecar

    RT/10, GTS, SRT-10's = street legal race cars.

    Putting the trans inthe rear makes sense and is cute and all..works for Porsche and Chevy I guess...but I think it's more awesome that the viper still uses a front engine, mid-trans setup and can still throw down with the best out there without even sneezing. There comes a point when going through a corner to much weight on the rear can still catch by surprise in the seat of your pants. If your going to own a regular Viper you should expect what your going to get, not saying an ACR can't do the same, but the downforce on that car is there for a reason.
    --RS

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Vipers have some hard core owners and many are some wicked race car drivers. BUT most of the folks that own these cars are fans and we all love our fans. But we know these fans will never push these cars hard enough to know bias percentages so they can dial the car in to the Nth degree. So to request from SRT to increase the cost of these cars to install a flappy paddle box to go a tenth faster in the 1/4 mile or a Trans Axle to get the bias perfect (which is great if you were ever to take it out to the track and push it hard to the edge of the wall on exit...which most will not) is a waste for a street car. If you want to go MUCH faster around the track than the guy with the Gumpert...BALL UP and learn how to drive the car. Go to a racing school, race in the SCCA or NASA etc... Buying a car because it has awesome specs is what posers do. Viper guys buy the car cuz it is scary and will mess you up. Its not a poser car...don't make it one with demands from SRT that racers that buy the Viper really dont want. These demands for boingy items like flappy paddle boxes also drive the price up and cheese up the car. These requests are only so posers can recite these specs while not even being able to go near them with their abilities. The car is fast...its respected and oh yea...its fast. Lets ease up on some of this electronic b.s. unless its government mandated. I like to control the car...not the other way around. Besides...if I decided to go racing with my viper it would not have a flappy box or a trans axle, a good manual racing box is fun to shift, reliable, cheap in comparison, tough to beat and easy to take in and out of the car.

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Take a little more time... Take as much as you need

  9. #9

    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    PJ454 - I never asked for an electronic control on the trans. Neither the Vett with its forward mounted trans or the Ford GT with a true trans axel use electronic controls. They both are manual shifting boxes.

    Nor did I ever say anything about paddle shifting. Gilles is the one who said he wanted an automatic at some point in time, not me.

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    My opinion has changed too. I no longer want 700hp. I want 800hp. Brute horsepower over technology works for me.

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ9454 View Post
    Vipers have some hard core owners and many are some wicked race car drivers. BUT most of the folks that own these cars are fans and we all love our fans. But we know these fans will never push these cars hard enough to know bias percentages so they can dial the car in to the Nth degree. So to request from SRT to increase the cost of these cars to install a flappy paddle box to go a tenth faster in the 1/4 mile or a Trans Axle to get the bias perfect (which is great if you were ever to take it out to the track and push it hard to the edge of the wall on exit...which most will not) is a waste for a street car. If you want to go MUCH faster around the track than the guy with the Gumpert...BALL UP and learn how to drive the car. Go to a racing school, race in the SCCA or NASA etc... Buying a car because it has awesome specs is what posers do. Viper guys buy the car cuz it is scary and will mess you up. Its not a poser car...don't make it one with demands from SRT that racers that buy the Viper really dont want. These demands for boingy items like flappy paddle boxes also drive the price up and cheese up the car. These requests are only so posers can recite these specs while not even being able to go near them with their abilities. The car is fast...its respected and oh yea...its fast. Lets ease up on some of this electronic b.s. unless its government mandated. I like to control the car...not the other way around. Besides...if I decided to go racing with my viper it would not have a flappy box or a trans axle, a good manual racing box is fun to shift, reliable, cheap in comparison, tough to beat and easy to take in and out of the car.
    I totally agree. Most of the people that complain about the new Viper's lack of whatever, can't even drive the previous car near it's limit. -Posers require big numbers for bragging rights or what?

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    I've driven the Ford GT for a few days it is an excellent and refined small block powered car and that gear box is just amazing. It allows you to pull it into the next gear at three times the speed of our heavy box. BUT, that big inch engine in my 2010 ACR will stomp the Ford GT in brutal acceleration feel when you drive it. The Ford GT is a great car but you can tell its a blown small block. Blown small block cars dont have the punch coming out like a naturally aspirated big block of similar power level. The Viper is the car I would select to own, because its a beast. If I owned both, the Ford GT would sit. I drove a ZR1 for a few days and I say the same thing about that. I will take my ACR. Big cubic inch rawness is the Viper. Lets not lose it. It does need to be a little bit louder though. I only have about 3000 miles on it...so once its broken in a little thats next.

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    I Bin Therbefor (Enthusiast) :

    Obviously, you are not a Viper owner -

    Becaue anyone who has even driven a Viper would not be making your statements.

    Now, come clean, are you a Chevy Volt owner???

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    They built the car that we all wanted and that SRT is proud of. No need to move the transmission, they have the weight distribution they are looking for. The car would not have been unveiled unless they were ready. Odd thinking on this thread.

    Bruce

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    I bin...also your fuel mileage statement is odd. You want better mileage? Screw that. The Vipers mileage is great. Mine makes over 600 h.p. and it gets 22 on the window sticker. I just drove mine down I-75 at 78 mph for a few hundred miles and got 24.6 mpg. WTF? Drive a FORD GT or Ferrari..they get at the most 15 mpg and make less power and are a smaller aero imprint. I'll be straight up with you, Since some time has passed...heres my IMO of you... you are just spouting buzz words and your statements are ludicrous.
    Last edited by PJ9454; 05-01-2012 at 10:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    It's not about the big number. It's about the smallest "1". The ring is not enough. I like rocket g's not skidding into walls.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ9454 View Post
    I bin...also your fuel mileage statement is odd. You want better mileage? Screw that. The Vipers mileage is great. Mine makes over 600 h.p. and it gets 22 on the window sticker. I just drove mine down I-75 at 78 mph for a few hundred miles and got 24.6 mpg. WTF? Drive a FORD GT or Ferrari..they get at the most 15 mpg and make less power and are a smaller aero imprint. I'll be straight up with you, Since some time has passed...heres my IMO of you... you are just spouting buzz words and your statements are ludicrous.
    Not better milage but the introduction of DI. Gilles let the cat out of the bag when he said at the intro that the Viper couldn't have a better power to weight ratio than the Ferrari. So to make the best of that, I thought, trade off the efficiency from DI for gas milage. THEN let the after market produce the necessary programing changes to the DI to boost the HP instead of the gas milage. The word was "even if" not I preferred.

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Quote Originally Posted by I Bin Therbefor View Post
    Not better milage but the introduction of DI. Gilles let the cat out of the bag when he said at the intro that the Viper couldn't have a better power to weight ratio than the Ferrari. So to make the best of that, I thought, trade off the efficiency from DI for gas milage. THEN let the after market produce the necessary programing changes to the DI to boost the HP instead of the gas milage. The word was "even if" not I preferred.
    Check out SRT's youtube vids: in one an engineer explains the DI is VERY hard to do on a wedge engine as opposed to an OHC hemi. That is why it does not have direct injection. It is however, still the only vehicle produced using the cam-in-cam variable valve timing for an in-block camshaft, and their comments regarding equilizing cyclinder temps are really interesting.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixGTS View Post
    Check out SRT's youtube vids: in one an engineer explains the DI is VERY hard to do on a wedge engine as opposed to an OHC hemi. That is why it does not have direct injection. It is however, still the only vehicle produced using the cam-in-cam variable valve timing for an in-block camshaft, and their comments regarding equilizing cyclinder temps are really interesting.
    Facinating dialog by the engineer. Development money well spent by the Viper engine team. Apparently a much more responsive engine that will offer better durability for bolt on mods.

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Uh,............it's the pedal on the right..........

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    I've changed the clutch on my Viper, and on my previous C6 Corvettes. SCREW having the transmission in the back! You have to remove the entire rear drivetrain (exhaust, driver's side header, loosen passenger side header, axles, diff, wheels, torque tube) just to access the clutch on a Corvette. This is a very long and tedious process. Clutch swap on a Viper is almost a joke, very simple to pull the trans and put it back in. Here is a photo of all the parts that have to be removed when doing a C6 clutch change:









    NO THANKS! I like the front mounted transmission.
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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Nine ball you know and I know and others that have performance cars know. "I bin" probably doesnt even own a 9/16 wrench so he has no idea. Its one thing to spout all these buzz words its another to make a car a PIA to own, maintain and modify. I seriously would have bought an Aston as a daily driver until I heard the ungodly yearly maintenance fees. Trans flushes, rear gear flushes etc...as these highly complex parts are so sensitive to things. I bought a Jag XK instead. The tranny NEVER requires service and it has 73k miles on it now and it works so perfect. Why can't Aston do that? Cuz they listen to guys that spout buzzwords on lightning fast shift times blah blah blah and now the tranny is crazy technical, requires lots of maintenance and it probably not very reliable. Sounds like a Ferrari to me. Thats why I dont own one. The 12,000 mile service on a Ferrari is $12,000.00 OMG screw that. Those doingy things only matter when you are standing in the Club trying to look cool. Real car guys dont need a car to be cool. They need a car to fulfill their need for g's and as something they can modify for self expression of their tastes.

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ9454 View Post
    Lets ease up on some of this electronic b.s. unless its government mandated.
    The only way to ease up on the electronic bs is to tell the government to kiss our azzes. Unfortunately there aren't any American car companies with the balls to do that, so we're stuck with TC, TPMS, ABS, drive by wire, backup cameras, black boxes and airbags blowing up from every direction and killing people to save them from being killed by the accident. By the end of the decade we will have electronic steering and can feel really great about "driving" a sports car.

    It's 1974 all over again. Only this time it isn't uninspiring 140hp Corvettes, it's unispiring nannie cars.
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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ9454 View Post
    I like to control the car...not the other way around.
    Quote Originally Posted by v10enomous View Post
    Take a little more time... Take as much as you need
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray W View Post
    My opinion has changed too. I no longer want 700hp. I want 800hp. Brute horsepower over technology works for me.
    We are no longer part of Dodge's demographic.
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  25. #25

    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck 98 RT/10 View Post
    We are no longer part of Dodge's demographic.
    IMO, not so. The "standard" Viper with the more agressive six (6) vent hood, black interior and Track Package is intended to meet the current Viper demographic. Remember all the government required electronics can be shut off, with the exception of the braking package. For example, if you hold the "button" for 25 seconds below 25mph, the stability control can been turned off. (see Car & Driver interview comments)

    No doubt, the GTS model is intended to attract a new demographic. Those new sales will insure the economics necessary to keep Viper in production in both versions for a long time. Learning from Ferrari how to manufacture and market a low production rate car will also help. I hope everyone of those sales comes from a car manufactured outside the US!

    Perhaps the "standard" Viper will appear at the next invitational. IMO, that would help reassure the current demographic that it meets needs.

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Quote Originally Posted by I Bin Therbefor View Post
    IMO, not so. The "standard" Viper with the more agressive six (6) vent hood, black interior and Track Package is intended to meet the current Viper demographic. Remember all the government required electronics can be shut off, with the exception of the braking package. For example, if you hold the "button" for 25 seconds below 25mph, the stability control can been turned off. (see Car & Driver interview comments)
    You don't get it. The demographic I am referring to is the original Viper demographic. The purists who work on their Vipers, a little or a lot. Track their Vipers, a little or a lot. Players and posers (yes, even posers can be purist) devoted to form and function, big cubes and simplicity. That demographic doesn't mind removing a functional crossbrace to get to the engine but cusses at having to grab another tool to remove some worthless plastic engine cover. They happily modify throttle linkage so it doesn't pull through the firewall, but do not relish the thought of searching for a mysterious electronic bug or replacing an entire gauge cluster when a broken cable would have been easily detected and repaired.

    Maybe in 20 years there will be a "Bob Lutz II" to come along and build a car for our ignored market. And if that happens I'll buy it and happily park it along side of my two GenIIs.
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  27. #27

    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    What if SRT licensed someone to build a continuation series of past Vipers or an update version of past Vipers? That car would be delivered without engine or trans and thereby avoid all the government rules. The buyer could buy a crate engine and trans from SRT, or anyone for that matter, put it in the car, or have someone put in the car and there you go. I'm thinking of someone like Superformance who does a lot of excellent work in this area. I suppose it would be considered a kit car by some but would it satisfy your requirements? There's a lot of engineering and choices to be worked out (which body style(s)), but its not a difficult thing to do.;

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Who is this guy? ^^^ I bin, those molds and jigs etc...are long torn down. There are so many legal hoops to jump through to achieve that and for no reason...you can buy a used Viper for half price of your idea and simply build it up. Cars are plentiful to be refurbed to achieve that goal (its waaaay more cost effective). Are you like 12-15 years old or something (this is a serious question)? Because some of the stuff you say shows you just need a little more background in how marketing, return on investment and price/value works. To ressurrect molds that will cost you millions of dollars in funds to purchase, move, set them up and then maintain/catalog/market just to sell a car body that has a track record of only a limited run in the first place...will net you HUGE financial losses. ROI look it up.
    Last edited by PJ9454; 05-07-2012 at 11:08 AM.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    I'm very glad that you're able to satisfy your needs from the used Viper market.

    However let me assure you that pulling a mold for a fiber glass body does not require millions or even thousands of dollars. There are many boat shops around that will galdly accomodate your for a lot less. Further there are a few very good shops in the US, Italy and of all places Poland that can do the same in aluminum. Superformance does not have that kind of investment in its products which include the Daytona coupe, and the Corvette GT. There's a guy in Kansas who makes Scarab replicas with aluminum bodies from Europe. As for the legal loop holes they are all known. Wintess all the kit car folks in business.

    Still, your solution is the best, buy an inexpensive used Viper. The availability of such cars would seem the market forces are at working telling you that there isn't any real demand for what you desire so no one is competing for those vehicles. Perhaps the "ignored market" to which you refer doesn't exist? If it did, there wouldn't be any inexpensice used Vipers needing restoration?

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    Default Re: Some time has passed - these are my IMOs

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck 98 RT/10 View Post
    You don't get it. The demographic I am referring to is the original Viper demographic. The purists who work on their Vipers, a little or a lot. Track their Vipers, a little or a lot. Players and posers (yes, even posers can be purist) devoted to form and function, big cubes and simplicity. That demographic doesn't mind removing a functional crossbrace to get to the engine but cusses at having to grab another tool to remove some worthless plastic engine cover. They happily modify throttle linkage so it doesn't pull through the firewall, but do not relish the thought of searching for a mysterious electronic bug or replacing an entire gauge cluster when a broken cable would have been easily detected and repaired.

    Maybe in 20 years there will be a "Bob Lutz II" to come along and build a car for our ignored market. And if that happens I'll buy it and happily park it along side of my two GenIIs.
    What is the ignored market you speak of that the gen1 (original viper) solved, but the gen 2/3/4 did not? In relative terms, the viper has consistently been the most brutal and easy to work on car for the time. The genv does not seem like much of a departure (if at all) from the core parts you mention (engine/trans/suspension/brakes) are all still very easy to work on. Sure, more electronics in the interior (about time), but it is not like the 80's vette digital dashes. If I carry your logic too far (just as an extreme example), you would still want a car that you had to tune up every 3000miles, adjust the carb and timing, etc like those of the 50's/60's? Point is I don't think the purest miss the carb or setting the timing. I am happy to have a electronic gizmo work for years and years vs replacing/adjusting a cable, points, condensors, etc. If the issue is quality, I get it but you have to admit that has went way up over the years.

    So, if I had two gen2's in my garage (I don't), man I would be pumped to put a GenV between them with the only fear asking myself why do I have two gen 2's. Having a Gen3, I am equally excited to add a GenV. So for me, they not only hit the demographic, but expanded it (if the person has the money to purchase). If they don't have 100-130k, they were never in the market anyways (ie, never had a plan to produce a 50-70k viper).

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