Where in the heck does this ridiculous idea that a Viper cannot handle come from?

[PhoenixGTS]

I sold my Viper a while ago, but reading all the articles about the new Gen V I cannot help but become furious at the continuous restating of this bizarre idea that Vipers cannot turn corners. WHERE DID THIS IDEA COME FROM? Was there an article in some early magazine that was somehow quoted and has now become urban legend? I mean for heaven's sakes the GTS was the first America World Champion since the GT40 (which IIRC was built in England), and the Gen IV Viper has the Nordschliefe and Laguna Seca production car lap records!!! It would be pretty much impossible for a car as light as the Viper - with as much tire as the Viper - to not have HUGE grip. The only thing I can think that makes any sense at all is that such a high percentage of Vipers have been crashed that people think that means it has some sort of handling problem. Where does this craziness come from?

 

[PDCjonny]

Because somebody wrote back in 1993 that a Viper was far too powerful to be able to handle well and lazy inept hack "writers"
have been regurgitating the same statement for 20 years. Despite all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

[DrumrBoy]

From people who've never driven them. Properly set up and capably driven theses cars have really good handling characteristics.

 

[stranger355]

The ridiculous idea comes from the simple fact that once the car looses grip in a corner it's harder to regain control than a lot of other sports cars. No doubt the car turns blistering lap times with its grip through the corners, but "handling" has more to do with the balance of the car as it approaches or exceeds the limits of adhesion. For the most part, I put the comments about the car not handling in the same category as statements that say the car is "raw" or "unforgiving." I think it's true and I love it.

 

[JoelW]

From people who've never driven them. Properly set up and capably driven theses cars have really good handling characteristics.

Yes those of us in the TN/Ala club were admiring your laps at RA during NARRA from a ways back as we did the best we could for first time out. Not sure about the properly set up part but I know mine isn't capably driven just yet. Spincter factor I guess...

 

[PJ9454]

Its true if you are a novice...it can bite you. If you are a racecar driver its a great car. What I've found is that both my GTS and my ACR really snap when going out to find the limit of adhesion. On a road course you can run to the limit BUT its a finer edge than you want for a novice to drive. A novice needs to stay away from the limit. Although the limit is out there a little on the viper, think of it has having a qualifying tune up in it... this chassis layout makes some wicked traction, BUT only offers about 3 inches of rear yaw/slide that you have to play with before it tries to spin around on you versus the normal foot of slide/yaw most cars will offer before they snap at you. Its saveable once you know that. But you need to approach a corner like Jim Clark and tighten up the line smooth and graceful to find the limit to get the yaw initiated. You can then feel it giving way (like the rears are starting to run over some sand) as you yaw/slide it a little too hard and then just back it down or widen the exit to bring it back. Thats not a bad thing, cars like that are fast around tracks and require a talented smoooooth driver. A more forgiving setup with more yaw allowed before it loses it and spins would make the car slower in a good drivers hands BUT a novice driver would be more inclined to push this softer more forgiving setup to the edge of adhesion and could go faster with this weak tuneup then HE normally could drive with a race/qualifying tune up. A LP 640 I drove...OMG I would never push that car it was frigging dangerous on the edge. I would give that car an inch of yaw and it was GONE. No idea who is supposed to drive that car fast...not me... I tap out.

 

[v10enomous]

Here's a couple of sources...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeEBrOx12uQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YR9784zE2A&feature=related

 

[3whitevipers]

I too wonder where that info came from. In Auto Week that featured the Gen 5, the earlier vipers (Gen1 to Gen 4), were described as poor handlers and poorly assembled. My Gen 3 and Gen 4 all have better interiors and paint then any of my Vettes ( I've had 4 vettes). I really wonder if these writers actually have driven a Viper for any length of time. It's amazing how a "fact" gets repeated without real verification. Reminds me of the EPA with some of their facts.--Dave

 

[DrumrBoy]

Thanks Joel! NARRA was awesome....I actually got a Road Atlanta PB on Sat with a 1:34. The car definitely has a 1:29 in it......maybe with a good driver and some A6's

 

[HLANDIS]

The ridiculous idea comes from the simple fact that once the car looses grip in a corner it's harder to regain control than a lot of other sports cars. No doubt the car turns blistering lap times with its grip through the corners, but "handling" has more to do with the balance of the car as it approaches or exceeds the limits of adhesion. For the most part, I put the comments about the car not handling in the same category as statements that say the car is "raw" or "unforgiving." I think it's true and I love it.

Agree 100%, love the rawness of the Viper. Feathering the throttle around a turn is much more fun than relying on electronics to keep it straight (on the track of course). Off the track, just be very careful and enjoy the ride!

 

[MADMAX]

Its true if you are a novice...it can bite you. If you are a racecar driver its a great car. What I've found is that both my GTS and my ACR really snap when going out to find the limit of adhesion. On a road course you can run to the limit BUT its a finer edge than you want for a novice to drive. A novice needs to stay away from the limit. Although the limit is out there a little on the viper, think of it has having a qualifying tune up in it... this chassis layout makes some wicked traction, BUT only offers about 3 inches of rear yaw/slide that you have to play with before it tries to spin around on you versus the normal foot of slide/yaw most cars will offer before they snap at you. Its saveable once you know that. But you need to approach a corner like Jim Clark and tighten up the line smooth and graceful to find the limit to get the yaw initiated. You can then feel it giving way (like the rears are starting to run over some sand) as you yaw/slide it a little too hard and then just back it down or widen the exit to bring it back. Thats not a bad thing, cars like that are fast around tracks and require a talented SMOOOOOOOOTH driver. A more forgiving setup with more yaw allowed before it loses it and spins would make the car slower in a good drivers hands BUT a novice driver would be more inclined to push this softer more forgiving setup to the edge of adhesion and could go faster with this weak tuneup then HE normally could drive with a race/qualifying tune up. A LP 640 I drove...OMG I would never push that car it was frigging dangerous on the edge. I would give that car an inch of yaw and it was GONE. No idea who is supposed to drive that car fast...not me... I tap out.

Well presented.
Particularly agree with " smoooooth" driving....

 

[DrumrBoy]

Its also difficult to feel the car rotating because the seat is so close to the rear tires. In a Mustang for example, you're sitting a few feet forward of the rear tires, so when the back starts to kick out, you can "feel" the rotation and correct. In the Viper, when those 3 inches of travel happen its often not felt because you're sitting right on the point that's moving.....no sense that the car is rotating.

You can hone your feel for rotation by doing it a bunch...... as in slides in a parking lot (choose one without a lot of poles) but if its been a day or two since your last slide, its really hard to feel the car rotate and by the time you do feel it its too late.

 

[drlee50]

So... as a beginner in a viper, (gen 2) on the road course-- do you suggest full soft on the shocks, and loosen up the sway bars? ( my stuff is all aftermarket and adjustable) Allow more roll or yaw and get the feel , then tighten things up as you feel confident? I took mine out last week- first time on the road course and it was set up medium to stiff id say. no real "roll" to the body at all. The rear did want to come out. I was not as smooth as my instructor, be even he was cautious and said the same thing-- the rear def wants to come out if you are not careful. I caught it a couple times-- 8-10" rear slide outs. . In the rain, even on the rain "line"-- its was pretty damn scary-- slipping around every corner!- I called it a day and rode in the porsche's as a passenger-- they still ran pretty damn hard even in the wet!

 

[drlee50]

thanks for taking the time to write this up

Its true if you are a novice...it can bite you. If you are a racecar driver its a great car. What I've found is that both my GTS and my ACR really snap when going out to find the limit of adhesion. On a road course you can run to the limit BUT its a finer edge than you want for a novice to drive. A novice needs to stay away from the limit. Although the limit is out there a little on the viper, think of it has having a qualifying tune up in it... this chassis layout makes some wicked traction, BUT only offers about 3 inches of rear yaw/slide that you have to play with before it tries to spin around on you versus the normal foot of slide/yaw most cars will offer before they snap at you. Its saveable once you know that. But you need to approach a corner like Jim Clark and tighten up the line smooth and graceful to find the limit to get the yaw initiated. You can then feel it giving way (like the rears are starting to run over some sand) as you yaw/slide it a little too hard and then just back it down or widen the exit to bring it back. Thats not a bad thing, cars like that are fast around tracks and require a talented smoooooth driver. A more forgiving setup with more yaw allowed before it loses it and spins would make the car slower in a good drivers hands BUT a novice driver would be more inclined to push this softer more forgiving setup to the edge of adhesion and could go faster with this weak tuneup then HE normally could drive with a race/qualifying tune up. A LP 640 I drove...OMG I would never push that car it was frigging dangerous on the edge. I would give that car an inch of yaw and it was GONE. No idea who is supposed to drive that car fast...not me... I tap out.

 

[PJ9454]

Pray for rain and loosen the bars up and the shocks and learn the car on a soft rain setup. You will learn more about that car in the rain than in the dry. Then when it dries out you will have to stiffen up the bars.

But if its not raining...loosen the rear bar up and soften the shocks up until you can feel it get clunky or try to hit the stops on the worst bump on the track. Now you've maximized chassis travel. If it wheel hops on hard deceleration then you will have to stiffen the rear shocks up (or heel toe blip the throttle during braking to make it stop). Since you dont have a brake proportioning valve, if the rear brakes bite too hard and it tries to come around on you, file a notch in the rear pads to take some surface area off them to get the balance right OR add some fuel to it. I rear steer trailbrake it into a corner, its like pulling the E-brake to help you turn coming into the corners...I like it but you brake with your big toe and press your knee hard against the door or body panel to get better control. Trailbraking it to turn it will solve any push the car may have on entrance or coming in hot and roll the car on its nose to turn it (a good driver will drive the car he has, not wish for the car he wants...either style is fast). Now once you get the car pushing coming out or really tight in the middle of the corner start tightening up the rear bar to get a balance between a car that snaps out on you OR has a tendency to push. Its all swapping this for that. You need it slightly loose. Loose is fast, a snap spin means you really have the rear bar overtightened (or its too thick) or your shocks are too stiff in the rear.

These are all adjustments you can easily do at the track...caster camber is a whole new deal.

Get some very high quality brake fluid. I use Castrol SRF and always tap the brakes a few hundred feet before the brake zone to be sure they are still UP. Fluid will often boil as you go down the next straight due to heat rejection off the rotors and it can air up the caliper and leave you with brakes that go to the floor. The hair pin at Sebring is notorious for that as its just the right combo of braking and heat rejection in the prior corners to get the calipers hot and boil the fluid.

Good luck.

 

[drlee50]

Thank you again for the info! I have carbotech 10's and 8's on my big brake kit with motul 660 brake fluid. The car stops very very well and I never had the ABS kick in. I do know abs works because I did participate in some braking exercises and some lane toss drills etc, but on the track, they just plan worked really well. Ill move up to 12's and 10's in the future on a faster track like road america. I am not driving the car hard enough at this point to cook the fluid like you have experienced....yet.

Talking to some other racers, some say that on some cars, if you loosen the rear bar, it can make the front not grip as well and vice versa-- You said to go ahead and loosen both in the rain- I just wanted to be clear. The front seems to be on rails in the dry-- the rear was not planting as much as I had hoped. I was going to try to just loosen the rear bar, as you suggested, and loosen the shocks all around first and try that. I fear that it might screw up the front grip if I dont loosen the front bar too. Not sure how vipers react to my specific change so thought I would ask. I know each car has its quirks and you may not be able to say for sure, but if there are general trends I can learn about, it would help me as I go to see those trends and adjust accordingly. I certainly need to get it a bit looser for my skill level at this point. I am working on my trail braking skills... it certainly requires a fine fine touch-- I am trying to be as smooth as I can been with all the pedals-- seems the car sticks much better that way.

Thanks again for your experienced information!!

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

The GenI/IIs had a bad push. They should have come with 295 up front.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

From people who've never driven them. Properly set up and capably driven theses cars have really good handling characteristics.

Very true.

 

[klamathpro]

The GenI/IIs had a bad push. They should have come with 295 up front.

Or come with PS2's had they existed. The XGT's and MXX3's were the weakest link, but that's all they had. Modern tread design is so much better, any cheap summer front tire will outperform that old bottleneck.

 

[drlee50]

the super sports I have on my fronts are excellent -- still only a 275/35/18

 

[PJ9454]

Drlee50 the info I gave you is based off my experience. Your new bar and tire combo may have different characteristics than a normal viper. But as you loosen the rear bar you add traction to the rear and take it away from the front (until the car rolls too much). Vice versa. The idea behind the loose rear bar is to keep you from spinning around while you learn the car. I drive one handed in the rain or with a car that has a history of snap spinning. You can react much faster. Get your other hand on the shifter base or something that will let you feel the car move.

I can boil Motul 660 so tap your brakes. Also be sure to go from absolutely wide open throttle to absolutely blasting the brakes. The car will go from a rear ward pitch to slamming down ******* its nose and for about 1 second you have have ungodly stopping ability as the front tires will think the car weighs 5000 lbs. Then back off the brakes a little or they will lock up. If you have ABS that works that may not be the case. But take advantage of the pitch rotation you can blast big speed off the car instantly. It hurts a little, but keep your belts tight and you won't get bruises. But you can outbrake everyone that "lets the car breathe" before braking by 50 feet or more in a 400 foot brake zone.

If you really want to get good at trail braking you have to have a proportioning valve you can adjust within your reach. As your fuel load burns off you need to take off rears, unless the rears get hot then you need to add rear. But you need the fronts working too at just the right percentage to maximize braking.

Also if you really mess up a corner and are headed out toward the wall don't give up and hit the brakes...that gets you into trouble. See it early and use the engine downshifts to rotate the car, this keeps the fronts biting and side bite will keep you off the wall if you catch it in time.

When some tracks get really hot and the car pushes no matter what..there is a quick fix...during qualifying sessions I use high rpm downshifts to in effect E-brake turn the car with the engine rpms acting as a controlled rear ABS on corners. Its keeps the rears from locking and makes the car loose on decel so it will turn fast. It works especially well on slow corners on a greasy track. It will make some crazy noises during that and the corner workers will have some wide eyes, but when you are hanging the inside front tire 6 inches off the ground on corner exit they will applaud. Also, tap the brake on corner exit so that tire stops rotating in mid-air...it just looks cool. LOL

 

[latamud]

From people who've never driven them.

Agree. Years before owning my Viper the only experience driving it was on video games. On Gran Turismo, it races down the track like an overpowered rear-steering forklift. I used to think Vipers really drove like that.

 

[drlee50]

DAmn I appreciate your help!! I can not wait to get my ass back on the track and try some of these techniques! I think I have enough to work with for now!! THanks again!!
Lee

Drlee50 the info I gave you is based off my experience. Your new bar and tire combo may have different characteristics than a normal viper. But as you loosen the rear bar you add traction to the rear and take it away from the front (until the car rolls too much). Vice versa. The idea behind the loose rear bar is to keep you from spinning around while you learn the car. I drive one handed in the rain or with a car that has a history of snap spinning. You can react much faster. Get your other hand on the shifter base or something that will let you feel the car move.

I can boil Motul 660 so tap your brakes. Also be sure to go from absolutely wide open throttle to absolutely blasting the brakes. The car will go from a rear ward pitch to slamming down ******* its nose and for about 1 second you have have ungodly stopping ability as the front tires will think the car weighs 5000 lbs. Then back off the brakes a little or they will lock up. If you have ABS that works that may not be the case. But take advantage of the pitch rotation you can blast big speed off the car instantly. It hurts a little, but keep your belts tight and you won't get bruises. But you can outbrake everyone that "lets the car breathe" before braking by 50 feet or more in a 400 foot brake zone.

If you really want to get good at trail braking you have to have a proportioning valve you can adjust within your reach. As your fuel load burns off you need to take off rears, unless the rears get hot then you need to add rear. But you need the fronts working too at just the right percentage to maximize braking.

Also if you really mess up a corner and are headed out toward the wall don't give up and hit the brakes...that gets you into trouble. See it early and use the engine downshifts to rotate the car, this keeps the fronts biting and side bite will keep you off the wall if you catch it in time.

When some tracks get really hot and the car pushes no matter what..there is a quick fix...during qualifying sessions I use high rpm downshifts to in effect E-brake turn the car with the engine rpms acting as a controlled rear ABS on corners. Its keeps the rears from locking and makes the car loose on decel so it will turn fast. It works especially well on slow corners on a greasy track. It will make some crazy noises during that and the corner workers will have some wide eyes, but when you are hanging the inside front tire 6 inches off the ground on corner exit they will applaud. Also, tap the brake on corner exit so that tire stops rotating in mid-air...it just looks cool. LOL

 

[Boxer12]

My 2c: #1-The power-assisted rack-and-pinionsteering system is sluggish (slow and lacks road feel). #2-The balance and weight of the car combined with the huge rear tires makes it hard to 'toss' around corners.

 

[PJ9454]

I agree with boxer in that the ACR is not a car you throw around the track. I race A/Sedan (SCCA Champion, Track record holder blah blah) and we throw and slide and drift those cars all over the race track. Watch the laps of the 'ring You drive the ACR like an Indy car or a go kart. Keep the tire hooked, don't drift, don't toss it around. Precision driving at the edge of traction. The car likes to be pointed in the direction its supposed to go. Our A/Sedan cars are fastest with a little yaw in them. If you mess up with your ACR and need a big correction cuz your angle of attack into the corner is wrong, you had better give up the corner and simply fix it while you still have pavement left to work with...just drive it like an Indy car or a go kart. Precise and point it where it needs to go. NO drifting/sliding...drifting/sliding is for imports and big sloppy road race/touring cars....like my Mustang.

 

[Mopar488]

It is an urban legend. I guarantee you that most people that say it have never seen a Viper.

 

[swexlin]

The Viper is one of the best handling, fastest cars in the world - period. Even a Gen 1, while not CURRENT supercar fast, is not by any means a slug, by anyone's standards.

 

[PJ9454]

Actually its because most TV show test drivers are comparing them to touring cars that are very sloppy in comparison and without grippy tires and no downforce so it makes them forgiving to drive as those touring cars can't do anything quickly as the chassis won't do it. Even a SS Camaro is a touring car. Sorry but its true.

Drive a SCCA GT-1 car around a racetrack and an ACR around the track...its the same car, the ACR is just heavier as the ACR has A/C and a radio etc.... You arent drifting and sliding either of them around. Big tires, lots of downforce and lots of grip..don't slide it like your 4 door Mercedes or Camaro on your TV show, point it and race it. Aero sliding sideways takes away downforce and off the track you go. Its a aero dependent designed race car, drive it like one.

 

[Jay M]

Thanks for posting those videos, I had never seen the German one. Too bad he didn't compare it to a Porsche.

I find the Viper to be very predictable, and even a joy to drive on a track, though I do have very limited track experience. However, on the street, there is one on-ramp that I can barley take at more then 40mph in the Viper. My Lexus Is350 is quite comfortable a that speed, where the Viper feels very loose.

How do you explain that?

~Jay

 

[Fatboy 18]

I think you have to go way back to the 60s to settle this handling thing. You roads are Big and wide and in general American cars were made for long distance comfort on Interstates. European cars were made for much narrower roads and the cars set up had to deal with a hell of a lot more bends. European Racing circuits also had a lot of bends. While America went for big banked oval circuits


Clarkson on Top Gear makes fun of American Cars, example being the Corvette " Oooh look it has silly Leaf springs, the Body's made of plastic" etc etc............

So for many Europeans they STILL think American cars Don't handle.

I went to see a friend of mine at his office yesterday, One of his staff was saying to me "yea that cars OK but it wont keep up with a Porsche on the bends"
I really could not be bothered to argue with him, but as I left I suggested he look at the latest Ring records

In general the feeling on American cars over here is they Go well in a straight line with big fuel guzzling engines but don't go round bends!
Just saying