Monday we find out who is faster at Laguna Seca, ZR1 or Gen V

[rw99]

Here's some context for our weekend evaluation of that 1:33 run in the 2010 ACR:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjU0MyL10cg

Big props to SRT engineer Chris Winkler for his work behind the wheel. I'd argue (mildly) that his record was set due in no small part to his immense cojones, and that pro driver Pobst will likely drive a lap that's more smooth. Pobst may have new-found confidence in the platform, due to all of the dynamic improvements, and this may have permitted him to drive the new Viper closer to its edge.

I'm obviously hoping for a Viper win, but I'm not going to be terribly upset if the halo 'Vette beats the track record with a pro at the wheel.

And listen, if it's the Viper that came out on top... it will be a HUGE win for the Gen V team. And anyone thereafter that says the new car is just a warmed-over and over-priced iteration of the Gen IV will need to, well, stop talking.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Bluestreak and bcmarly your reasonings makes sense. I had forgotten the mag drivers did the VIR laps. Dont know why I thought it was Pobst...

 

[bluestreak]

Agree with it being a huge victory if the gen v can pull it off. Even on the heels of the top Vette makes for a good pounding with the next acr.


How come there is no lap for the non-acr gen iv? That would tell us a lot about the improvements of the base gen v.

 

[slysnake]

Check out the post in the above mentioned vette forum thread, by Captn Van with various pics...is that vette Stryker red??????

Nice to see that forum is pretty accepting. The few comments I read from those Vette guys seemed to be fairly reasoned with very little "bashing".

 

[chorps]

All the vehicles are very evenly matched...Gen V, ACR and ZR1. I think a lot of ZR1 lap time improvements came with suspension fine tuning over the years along with the tire change.

I'm excited to find out who won, although really it's the consumers that win in the end. Totally stoked to see American cars duking it out on the podium, and that it's the classic big displacement front engine, RWD with manual transmission formula that are ruling the roost. Sun hasn't set on them yet.

 

[bcmarly]

From ***** on the corvette forum:

" ZR1 had their PDE package (same as Nordschleife run) and the Viper had Pirelli R rubber. I think it was 60 or 80 tread wear rating. The Viper tires were treaded though. Interesting comments from Randy Pobst about the handling dynamics of the new Viper. Of course the Viper was pre-production so I'd expect them to revise settings before release. Both were rocketships. Randy got out of the ZR1 and said it was dramatically different than earlier ZR1's.

and

"Chevy nor SRT had Tech people there. Both companies were relaxed about that. And I heard nothing from any of the Motor Trend people that would indicate any manipulation. In fact it was very exciting for all to see which car would come out on top. Absolutely professional in all respects. We asked them about Tech representation from Ferrari, Porsche and McLaren and they said most definitely especially Ferrari. McLaren and the new Mercedes SLS Black Series were invited but declined. That say's a lot."

 

[bcmarly]

Totally stoked to see American cars duking it out on the podium, and that it's the classic big displacement front engine, RWD with manual transmission formula that are ruling the roost. Sun hasn't set on them yet.

Right on Bro.

 

[bluestreak]

From ***** on the corvette forum:

" ZR1 had their PDE package (same as Nordschleife run) and the Viper had Pirelli R rubber. I think it was 60 or 80 tread wear rating. The Viper tires were treaded though. Interesting comments from Randy Pobst about the handling dynamics of the new Viper. Of course the Viper was pre-production so I'd expect them to revise settings before release. Both were rocketships. Randy got out of the ZR1 and said it was dramatically different than earlier ZR1's.

and

"Chevy nor SRT had Tech people there. Both companies were relaxed about that. And I heard nothing from any of the Motor Trend people that would indicate any manipulation. In fact it was very exciting for all to see which car would come out on top. Absolutely professional in all respects. We asked them about Tech representation from Ferrari, Porsche and McLaren and they said most definitely especially Ferrari. McLaren and the new Mercedes SLS Black Series were invited but declined. That say's a lot."

Reading between the lines, my interpretation of that is not good news for the Viper. A ZR-1 on MPSC is going to be a few seconds faster than it was on PS2 in the first test, especially with better gear ratios. I'm actually surprised it wouldn't go even faster than 1:33.7 on those tires with Randy Driving. I'll gladly be wrong but IMO, the ZR1 at the least ran sub 1:34 leaving a very small window of opportunity for the Viper to have come out victorious.

Just my thoughts from an avid road race guy.

 

[bcmarly]

I'm not sure the Viper doesn't have the better gear ratios. Doesn't the 2013 ZR1 have less desirable gear ratios as compared to the 2012? That's what's being said over on the vette forum.

Reading between the lines, my interpretation of that is not good news for the Viper. A ZR-1 on MPSC is going to be a few seconds faster than it was on PS2 in the first test, especially with better gear ratios. I'm actually surprised it wouldn't go even faster than 1:33.7 on those tires with Randy Driving. I'll gladly be wrong but IMO, the ZR1 at the least ran sub 1:34 leaving a very small window of opportunity for the Viper to have come out victorious.

Just my thoughts from an avid road race guy.

 

[SnakeBitten]

So this test is also with a pre-production car. Well if it loses they have time to fix things before the final draft.

 

[ViperSmith]

Hopefully this is what SRT has been quiet for.

I won't feel bad if it doesn't finish first. But if it demolishes, it will be a great victory.

 

[ipetrov]

I remember watching the 1.33.9 video and toward the end the engineer (Winkler) who drove the record lap said that there is more in the car, i.e. the '10 ACR could have done even better, with an engineer, not a professional driver behind the wheel. Time for Andy Pobst to spin a couple of laps in the '10 ACR.

Wonder if heatsoak in the ZR1 didn't tip the scales to Gen V's favor somewhat (I doubt the new record lap was set on the first try).

 

[bluestreak]

I remember watching the 1.33.9 video and toward the end the engineer (Winkler) who drove the record lap said that there is more in the car, i.e. the '10 ACR could have done even better, with an engineer, not a professional driver behind the wheel. Time for Andy Pobst to spin a couple of laps in the '10 ACR.

Wonder if heatsoak in the ZR1 didn't tip the scales to Gen V's favor somewhat (I doubt the new record lap was set on the first try).

I noticed Winkler saying "There is a LOT more in it" at the end of the video too. The ACR definitely has some time on the table. And car going faster on a different day with a different (in this case better) driver is apples/oranges.

However I went back to the Edmunds test to see that the Viper is probably on Pirelli Corsa tires. Notice the Gen V only pulled 1.03 G on the skid pad. That's not very good for an R-compound. MPSC are significantly faster than those. If it was pirelli trofeo's, I'd give the Viper a chance. I can't imagine the Gen V beating the ACR and the ZR1 on a slower tire. Too tall of a mountain to climb. MPSC do take a little bit to come up to temp though, which could support your heat soak theory, but still, not looking good for Gen V from where I sit. And it's a Dec/Nov conducted event, not likely to be really hot and promote heat soak.

My wager is on the Vette. Pre-production unproven Viper on lesser tires with first time driver (albeit a good one) vs proven and improved Vette with stickier tires and probably more DF. Ralph and SRT should get an immediate raise if they pull this one off.

 

[Bobpantax]

It appears to me that the Viper has the track pack wheels and tires.

 

[46hemi]

I can't imagine the viper losing. I assume they (SRT) already had this test many times while building the Viper, it would only make sense to anticipate this comparison out of the gate.

 

[v10enomous]

Whatever happens we all know that there is an ACR coming anyway. We should be grateful that we even have a horse in this race in 2013. It's fine to demand the best but it would be a shame to see dissension in the ranks if things don't go our way right out of the chute especially since the car has been so well received by the automotive press.

 

[madninjaskillz]

I noticed Winkler saying "There is a LOT more in it" at the end of the video too. The ACR definitely has some time on the table. And car going faster on a different day with a different (in this case better) driver is apples/oranges.

However I went back to the Edmunds test to see that the Viper is probably on Pirelli Corsa tires. Notice the Gen V only pulled 1.03 G on the skid pad. That's not very good for an R-compound. MPSC are significantly faster than those. If it was pirelli trofeo's, I'd give the Viper a chance. I can't imagine the Gen V beating the ACR and the ZR1 on a slower tire. Too tall of a mountain to climb. MPSC do take a little bit to come up to temp though, which could support your heat soak theory, but still, not looking good for Gen V from where I sit. And it's a Dec/Nov conducted event, not likely to be really hot and promote heat soak.

My wager is on the Vette. Pre-production unproven Viper on lesser tires with first time driver (albeit a good one) vs proven and improved Vette with stickier tires and probably more DF. Ralph and SRT should get an immediate raise if they pull this one off.

great post. I agree on all points.

 

[phavyarden]

I think everything has been said in the thread.
Love the Viper, but i'm completely sure that the Vette beat it. PSC are definetly a huge advantage.
Don't know why they didn't made this test with the Old ACR.
My predicts:
1:33.7: ZR1
1:35.X GTS

 

[BigDawg]

No excuses necessary. Don't start talking like the vette guys when the ACR destroyed their beloved ZR1. The fact was, the ZR1 cost more so Chevy had the budget to best the ACR's performance. It just turned out that their formula didn't produce the numbers that the Viper did.

Now both cars are equal price, meaning the manufacturers had equal opportunity to focus engineering where they wanted it. If the Viper loses it backs up the claim that SRT focused more on creature comforts and attracting luxury sports car buyers instead of raw performance. We'll see on Monday

 

[I Bin Therbefor]

No excuses necessary. Don't start talking like the vette guys when the ACR destroyed their beloved ZR1. The fact was, the ZR1 cost more so Chevy had the budget to best the ACR's performance. It just turned out that their formula didn't produce the numbers that the Viper did.

Now both cars are equal price, meaning the manufacturers had equal opportunity to focus engineering where they wanted it. If the Viper loses it backs up the claim that SRT focused more on creature comforts and attracting luxury sports car buyers instead of raw performance. We'll see on Monday

I'd like to see a Viper vs Viper series of tests. Gen V SRT with no options except aero and track vs a Gen V GTS with no options except aero and track. Then an intergenerational series of tests. However it will be very hard to get STOCK previous generation cars. The ACR would be excluded UNTIL the "new" ACR is produced. My reasoning being your concern over creature focused comforts may well apply to the GTS but may not apply to the SRT Gen V.

 

[VENOM V]

I think everything has been said in the thread.
Love the Viper, but i'm completely sure that the Vette beat it. PSC are definetly a huge advantage.
Don't know why they didn't made this test with the Old ACR.
My predicts:
1:33.7: ZR1
1:35.X GTS

I agree that the PSCs stick like glue, but do we know that this new Corsa that was fine-tuned for the Viper won't? I'm not ready to concede before the story is published.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Well I remember reading that SRT and I believe Ralph said the Gen V is faster than the outgoing ACR etc. A lot of hype surrounding the cars performance from SRT and the media before hand. If the pre-production Viper doesn't deliver on Monday then I cant see a positive spin on this for SRT. Its still going to be a great car from what Ive read but it wont live up to SRT's hype on its performance. And while its trying to recapture the Gen II GTS magic with its design it will fall short of its dominance in the performance arena.

I suspect a loss will lead to a lot of second guessing by some Viper faithful, buyers and car nuts in general. The masses wont care that this isn't an ACR Viper vs a ZR1. All they will see is Vette vs Viper. And if the new Viper loses it will be losing to an old Vette. I guess that will be a kind of touche moment since the ZR1 had to deal with that loss at the Ring by an out of production ACR. Turn about? I hope it doesnt happen that way.

We've heard it before and might hear it again. "Why no CCB's?, Why didn't they give it more power? " etc. This test is a win win for the ZR1 NOT SRT. Imho of course. MT is definitely getting mileage out of this tease with all our speculation.

 

[bushido]

More details on motor trend's top 10 fastest production cars at Laguna..

You must be registered for see images

2011 Porsche GT3 RS – Nothing’s perfect, but the GT3 RS is pretty damn close. Its stellar steering, braking, and grip, all help make the German speedster the next best thing to a real race car.

2012 Audi R8 GT -Three words: barely street legal. This race-bred GT and its standard roll cage, four-point harnesses, fiber-reinforced plastic racing seats, fixed rear wing, race compound tires, lightweight aluminum and carbon-fiber bodywork, adjustable coilover suspension, sport exhaust, and 560 horses help it lap the track in 1:36.9.

2012 Nissan GT-R – The GT-R is a little on the heavy side, but that just means there’s more to love. It rushed to 60 mph in 2.9 seconds before conquering the quarter mile in 11.2 seconds at 121 mph.

2013 Nissan GT-R Black Edition – Godzilla impresses with its large bag of magic tricks. “It doesn’t tip over on itself and the GT-R’s hefty curb weight of 3887 pounds is well hidden.”

2010 Ferrari 458 Italia – This wild horse ran like the wind, lapping the raceway in 1:36.2, and it did it ever so gracefully. “There aren’t any flaws,” we said of the Italian supercar, in which we took extra laps in just because we could.

2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 -While the McLaren easily does all the hard work for you, the Corvette ZR1 requires the opposite type of driving. Don’t think you’re just going to sit back and enjoy the ride. “The ZR1 does not elicit relaxed smiles or slow sighs of ecstasy — only pants and palpitations,” we said of the 638-hp Bowtie.

2012 Lamborghini Aventador -Just like the raging bull it was named after, the Aventador stormed the circuit with all its might, but it didn’t come easy, as the wild animal was rather difficult to tame. Nonetheless, it lapped the circuit in an impressive 1:35.4.

2008 Dodge Viper ACR -The Viper has no shame; it’s rude and crude. It lapped the Mazda raceway in 1:35.12, and although it was anything but smooth, Randy Pobst said it was “tremendous fun.” If you don’t know what you’re doing though, the snake will come back and bite — hard.

2012 McLaren MP4-12C – This car was born ready. After all, the mid-engine supercar has F1 workings in its blood, and is powered by a twin-turbo V-8 that makes 592 horsepower.

2012 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 -We already knew there was something sinister about this red and black devil when it showed up with 666 miles on the odometer. Despite having fewer horses than several other contenders, it showed them and the Laguna Seca raceway who is boss.

http://wot.motortrend.com/top-10-fa...raceway-laguna-seca-304331.html#axzz2F8ugK1Q4

 

[phavyarden]

Viper has the 458 Accelaration as 458 has the Viper one

 

[SnakeBitten]

So Randy did drive an 08 ACR and he only got a 1:35....Hmmm. He already piloted a Z06 to a better time than "his" ACR's time. That sinks it for me. The improved ZR1 is the winner of MT Monday reveal.

Did anyone else notice that, according to the pic comparing the cars side by side, that both the Aventador and ACR did a 10.8 1/4 mile time? Gotta be a typo.

 

[rw99]

So Randy did drive an 08 ACR and he only got a 1:35....Hmmm. He already piloted a Z06 to a better time than "his" ACR's time. That sinks it for me. The improved ZR1 is the winner of MT Monday reveal.

Like I said above, don't discount the possibility that the dynamic improvements in the Gen V now provide the confidence needed for Pobst to drive this Viper harder... Maybe some benefit from gearing (vs 2010 ACR) as well.

 

[former345bhpLS1]

This will be a rather unique comparison. I can't ever remember two cars that were so mechanically similar from two different manufacturers.

There horsepower and torque are essentially equal, same basic curb weight, very similar tire footprints, nearly identical gearing (the spacing is the same and each ratio is within about 0.03 or less), nearly the same rear end gear (3.42 vs 3.55), both front-engine / rear drive, manual transmissions, length and width of the bodies are within an inch...pretty remarkable.

With two fraternal twins (or brother from a different mother??) competing like this, I can't see any real way to figure the winner based on numbers. These cars are just too similar. It's going to come down to integration and finesse, which ever car is best balanced and able to put it's power to the ground.

The ZR1 has been in a few recent comparison tests, both against other cars and other Corvettes. In a recent comparison between the ZR1, McLaren MP4-12C, and 458 italia at Spring Mountain (Road & Track: Oct 2012, Steve Millen driving); the ZR1 was quicker than the 12C, but slower than the 458.

Against other Corvettes at Spring Mountain (April 2012, Tommy Milner driving), the ZR1 was about 0.85 sec slower than the Z06 (and the ZR1s lap time was 2 seconds better than during the October test).

Spring Mountain is a tighter course than Laguna Seca (I think), but it's clear that there is plenty of variability session to session.

In any case, we'll find out soon and who knows what kind of times these cars will put down on the actual day.

I'm guessing that these two will be within a few tenths of each other and I'm still thinking the Viper could win.

I can't stop thinking about it this weekend, but it will be exciting to finally know and see some real numbers.

-Nick

 

[former345bhpLS1]

One other thing, I can only find one instance of a ZR1 and a Viper undergoing instrumented acceleration tests as part of the same comparison test. It was Car and Driver (March 2009). Compared the new 2009 ZR1 to a Murcielago LP640, SL65 Black, and 2008 Viper SRT-10 Coupe.

The ZR1 and Viper ran identical 0-60 times (3.6 sec) and a draw on 1/4 mile (11.8 @128 for the Viper and 11.7 @ 127 for the ZR1). Not great times for either car, but I don't think the Gen V needs to be much faster than the Gen IV to outrun the ZR1.

Just my two cents.

-Nick

 

[bcmarly]

I believe we'll see complete performance numbers including acceleration , braking, and skid pad numbers ; finally!!

 

[TrackAire]

One other thing, I can only find one instance of a ZR1 and a Viper undergoing instrumented acceleration tests as part of the same comparison test. It was Car and Driver (March 2009). Compared the new 2009 ZR1 to a Murcielago LP640, SL65 Black, and 2008 Viper SRT-10 Coupe.

The ZR1 and Viper ran identical 0-60 times (3.6 sec) and a draw on 1/4 mile (11.8 @128 for the Viper and 11.7 @ 127 for the ZR1). Not great times for either car, but I don't think the Gen V needs to be much faster than the Gen IV to outrun the ZR1.

Just my two cents.

-Nick

Please remember that drag strip (1/4 mile) times are easy to manipulate compared to magazine testing, etc. Most of the sub 11 second times seen in a ZR1 and Viper were done on private track rentals where there is a multiple of options for track prep and track glue...yes glue. There are different types of "glue" that can be applied to the track and how far down the track you want to apply it. The higher the horsepower of the car, the more benefit you will achieve from these chemicals since it allows you to hook up.

This means if the cars run 11.7 second quarter miles on a non prepped surface, they are really damn fast (especially if they are rwd) because with the right track, glue, tire pressures, DA and driver talent, a 10 second timeslip is possible.

Cheers,
George