v10enomous
Enthusiast
The Gen V does have shorter final gearing...
Latest from Edmunds. Dyno test.
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PatentLaw
Enthusiast
Looking at the numbers, from a purely an engineering perspective, I believe that Mr. Giles is accurately painting a picture here.
If you look at the difference from the lowest to the highest numbers for HP, you will notice a 9 percent difference. This is outside the standard deviation in the manufacturing process.
Additionally, the average of the Customer delivered cars is about 539.9 HP. If you all remember, adding smooth tubes and high flow air filters back in Gen II cars amounted for 10 HP. We are talking about numbers for this ONE CAR that deviate from the Customer delivered cars that go well into STRUCTURAL or Computer changes.
I have no doubt that SRT did benchmarking here. That benchmarking goes out the window, however, when the purely marketing oriented cars hit the unwary eyes of the magazines.
If you look at the centerpoint of the Customer data and factor in an average deviation of 5 percent, then 2.5 percent will be over and 2.5 percent will be under. For a normal distribution, the max a customer could expect, if they were lucky, would be in the low 550 range.
While all of this may not be totally dispostive of the issue, some things are clear.
1) This ZR1 clearly tests better (significantly so) than others.
2) This ZR1 falls outside what would be experienced by most, if not all, of the buyers.
3) It just happens to be that the one used for the test is the best one measured.
Not drinking the Viper cool-aid.....just stating the facts.
If you look at the difference from the lowest to the highest numbers for HP, you will notice a 9 percent difference. This is outside the standard deviation in the manufacturing process.
Additionally, the average of the Customer delivered cars is about 539.9 HP. If you all remember, adding smooth tubes and high flow air filters back in Gen II cars amounted for 10 HP. We are talking about numbers for this ONE CAR that deviate from the Customer delivered cars that go well into STRUCTURAL or Computer changes.
I have no doubt that SRT did benchmarking here. That benchmarking goes out the window, however, when the purely marketing oriented cars hit the unwary eyes of the magazines.
If you look at the centerpoint of the Customer data and factor in an average deviation of 5 percent, then 2.5 percent will be over and 2.5 percent will be under. For a normal distribution, the max a customer could expect, if they were lucky, would be in the low 550 range.
While all of this may not be totally dispostive of the issue, some things are clear.
1) This ZR1 clearly tests better (significantly so) than others.
2) This ZR1 falls outside what would be experienced by most, if not all, of the buyers.
3) It just happens to be that the one used for the test is the best one measured.
Not drinking the Viper cool-aid.....just stating the facts.
Paolo Castellano
Enthusiast
There is something off with the tire size, gearing or 6400 RPM rev limit from what we have been told for the rev limiter to kick in at 140 MPH.
Something to keep in mind:
1. Look at the 1.50 and 1.55 marks in the viper video. They might have as well put that fan behind the car - the hood blocks off essentially ALL the airflow to the intake.
2. 3.55 gearing should result in lower numerical dyno numbers vs. 3.07, all else equal.
3. If the Viper really came that short of the ZR1 in power/torque, Motor Trend wouldn't have measured via VBOX that the viper pulled harder than the vette on the straights of Laguna Seca.
1. Look at the 1.50 and 1.55 marks in the viper video. They might have as well put that fan behind the car - the hood blocks off essentially ALL the airflow to the intake.
2. 3.55 gearing should result in lower numerical dyno numbers vs. 3.07, all else equal.
3. If the Viper really came that short of the ZR1 in power/torque, Motor Trend wouldn't have measured via VBOX that the viper pulled harder than the vette on the straights of Laguna Seca.
I know, that is me reaffirming the Gen V needed a shift from 4th into 5th before 150mph (the other test VS the ZR1) where the Gen IV did not.
I Bin Therbefor
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A long time ago, Pontiac brought out a car named the GTO. A magazine tested it against a Ferrari GTO, the V12, 3 ltr racer. The magazine reported that the GM product beat the Ferrari. What they didn't report was that the GM car arrived in a trailer from a then famous stock car racing team, could barely idle, the suspension and brakes bore no resemblence to the street GTO, etc etc. Things have gotten a bit better, however be careful whose integrity you defend.
vancouver-gts
Viper Owner
C&D [ I have the mag] 65 Pontiac Catalina 2+2 performance figures , Bone stock hehe.
Production: 11,519
Engines: 421 V8 338 bhp @ 4600 rpm, 459 ft-lb @ 2800 rpm. 421 V8 356 bhp @ 4800 rpm, 459 ft-lb @ 3200 rpm. 421 V8 376 bhp @ 5000 rpm, 461 ft-lb @ 3600 rpm.
Performance: 421/376: 0-60 in 3.9 sec "
"it came from Royal Oak Pontiac (C/D had asked them for "a properly-set-up 2+2"--ahem), who had quietly slipped a 421 into C/D's GTO the year before, so who knows what the test car had in it, but a 0-60 time of 3.9 seconds (same as the 550+hp Cadillac CTS-V in Production"
Production: 11,519
Engines: 421 V8 338 bhp @ 4600 rpm, 459 ft-lb @ 2800 rpm. 421 V8 356 bhp @ 4800 rpm, 459 ft-lb @ 3200 rpm. 421 V8 376 bhp @ 5000 rpm, 461 ft-lb @ 3600 rpm.
Performance: 421/376: 0-60 in 3.9 sec "
"it came from Royal Oak Pontiac (C/D had asked them for "a properly-set-up 2+2"--ahem), who had quietly slipped a 421 into C/D's GTO the year before, so who knows what the test car had in it, but a 0-60 time of 3.9 seconds (same as the 550+hp Cadillac CTS-V in Production"
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v10enomous
Enthusiast
I have to say that one of my friends in high school had that car just like that in 1977... same color here... and that thing had balls for a huge car back then... Amazing intake growl... fun car... I think he paid $800 for it in super condition.
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vancouver-gts
Viper Owner
Friend's dad had a 66 GTO with tri power, he bought it new. After his passing my friend sold it to another friend who spent nearly 30K to restore it around 1988-89. He lives in Sacramento now.
We used to drag it against the 66 4 spd 427 Vette here.
The Goat never had a chance ,lol
We used to drag it against the 66 4 spd 427 Vette here.
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The Goat never had a chance ,lol
v10enomous
Enthusiast
I sure hope that the production models get a bump in HP. At VOI they hinted that the motors were underrated, well not the case. I was hoping for somewhere between 575-590rwhp. My gen4 made 540rwhp.
This should have never been close to start with, IMHO!! All show very little relative go. I love vipers but I am getting frustrated. Maybe they need to outsource the motors from Ford, talk about underrated!!! That is what our cars should have been putting out. The ZR1 would have been close but at least they wouldnt be beating us with a 4yr old car.
This should have never been close to start with, IMHO!! All show very little relative go. I love vipers but I am getting frustrated. Maybe they need to outsource the motors from Ford, talk about underrated!!! That is what our cars should have been putting out. The ZR1 would have been close but at least they wouldnt be beating us with a 4yr old car.
I Bin Therbefor
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01sapphirebob
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For the love of god people. It's a preproduction car!
hou99gts
Enthusiast
Yes, I made 556 hp / 531 tq that day. Fully stock 09 ACR, 1600 miles on the ODO, 93 octane fuel (standard premium here). Three other Gen IV's made more than 550 hp within the same hour on that same dyno in the same conditions.
Someone needs to run a low mile, stock gen IV and a gen V on the same dyno at the same time to get a true delta between the two cars.
mnc2886
Enthusiast
Okay, I personally have had enough of the posts that state "different dyno, different day, blah-blah." If you do research, most stock vehicles are within 10 HP of each other until you go to a California area dyno where 91 octane is used and it tends to be 10 HP less.
There is no arguing by anyone that this ZR1 has dyno'd significantly higher that any other stock ZR1. Period.
Next, let's take the lame argument of "same day, same dyno." Ever notice a stock Gen IV has dyno'd either equal or 10-15 HP more than a ZR1 ever did? There are comparisons between the two where a Gen IV has ran door to door and sometimes bested a ZR1. So, lets take a Gen V that is dyno'd the same day on the same dyno as the ZR1 and it magically falls short after showing a power increase. Like Ralph said, close the hood and you get in the 570-580 range. This is inline with the claimed 640 crank HP. Keep in mind the switch from 3.07 gears to 3.55 has cost the Viper some ponies due to increased drive train loss. It may be a net 40 at the crank HP increase, but the gearing change will bring it closer to net 30 at the wheels.
There may be a few things to be disappointed about with the Gen V, but this dyno test is not one of them. The only thing to do is call foul play on Chevy.
There is no arguing by anyone that this ZR1 has dyno'd significantly higher that any other stock ZR1. Period.
Next, let's take the lame argument of "same day, same dyno." Ever notice a stock Gen IV has dyno'd either equal or 10-15 HP more than a ZR1 ever did? There are comparisons between the two where a Gen IV has ran door to door and sometimes bested a ZR1. So, lets take a Gen V that is dyno'd the same day on the same dyno as the ZR1 and it magically falls short after showing a power increase. Like Ralph said, close the hood and you get in the 570-580 range. This is inline with the claimed 640 crank HP. Keep in mind the switch from 3.07 gears to 3.55 has cost the Viper some ponies due to increased drive train loss. It may be a net 40 at the crank HP increase, but the gearing change will bring it closer to net 30 at the wheels.
There may be a few things to be disappointed about with the Gen V, but this dyno test is not one of them. The only thing to do is call foul play on Chevy.
ferraritoviper
Enthusiast
Whew...gotta admit I'm impressed with all the info on dispaly in this thread. Well done guys, keep it coming!!
Yep...ive seen the gen4 door to door with the zr1 as well.. they both dynoed 530-550 rwhp and where within a 100 pounds of eachother.
The genv should be mopping up nicely on a regular 545 rwhp zr1.
But this ringer gm supplied isnt makeing it look that way.
Have faith. even at just 558 rwhp and 3350 pounds that will pull on your average zr1.
When the production ready 575 rwhp vipers run run into 545 rwhp truly stock zr1s then game over
The genv should be mopping up nicely on a regular 545 rwhp zr1.
But this ringer gm supplied isnt makeing it look that way.
Have faith. even at just 558 rwhp and 3350 pounds that will pull on your average zr1.
When the production ready 575 rwhp vipers run run into 545 rwhp truly stock zr1s then game over
chorps
Enthusiast
At least someone is paying attention....
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TrackAire
Enthusiast
Well, the highest ever stock hp ZR1 should be compared to the highest ever stock Gen 4....the above dyno run shows 581 hp (at 1:39 of the video)....is this correct or did I mis-read something. I've never seen a stock Gen 4 hit that type of number.
Cheers,
George
bluestreak
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LOL... Now, lets hope the engineers read this. MICHELIN PILOT SPORT CUPS!!!!!
Then we can watch the Gen V redeem itself on the road course. IMO it's proven itself on the drag strip, launching etc (3.2 for a RWD car is flying!), 10 second car for sure. It just needs the right tools to show what it can do on the track. It's definitely going to be right on par with equal tires. Maybe they are saving the MPSC for the ACR.
The question is, if the GTS/SRT Viper beats the ZR1, will there be enough need/demand for SRT to build an ACR? And if so, will it follow the same course as the Gen II or the Gen IV. I think they should try to make it as fast as possible with no aero, and leave the aero package as an option. But make sure there are distinct styling cues between the non aero ACR and the GTS/SRT. Maybe that's where the 700 hp will come in.
Then we can watch the Gen V redeem itself on the road course. IMO it's proven itself on the drag strip, launching etc (3.2 for a RWD car is flying!), 10 second car for sure. It just needs the right tools to show what it can do on the track. It's definitely going to be right on par with equal tires. Maybe they are saving the MPSC for the ACR.
The question is, if the GTS/SRT Viper beats the ZR1, will there be enough need/demand for SRT to build an ACR? And if so, will it follow the same course as the Gen II or the Gen IV. I think they should try to make it as fast as possible with no aero, and leave the aero package as an option. But make sure there are distinct styling cues between the non aero ACR and the GTS/SRT. Maybe that's where the 700 hp will come in.
slitherv10
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Making an ACR version with more Hp but no Aero package will only leave buyers thinking the same thing Corvette ZR1 buyers think. Why would I spend 120000 on a model that has slight cosmetic changes over a base model. i would rather have a very distinct difference when i spend double the money.
bluestreak
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Doesn't make any sense for people (not meaning you of course) to accuse the ZR1 of being a ringer and turn a blind eye to this Gen IV under the same conditions (91 octane) making 581 hp. I for one think it's more likely that Edmunds adjusted for crank hp and the 91 robbed the Gen IV of 19 hp. Sounds far more likely than the highest recorded Gen IV dyno coming from those circumstances. If that's the case, that Gen IV was a ringer too.
Just sayin'
bluestreak
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You may, but everyone won't. SRT will be able to sell more with options. Let's face it and aero'd out ACR is very niche. Very limited clientele will buy that. A lot of people flocked to the ZR1 (outsold the Z06 for a couple of years). I'm sure SRT took note of that. Gen IV ACR was not that much more expensive than the base viper. I doubt it outprices the GTS in track form, there is no reason for it to. However a ACR with GTS options certainly could. There are people who will buy an SRT/GTS and want to upgrade to a higher performance ACR with no aero, there is no doubt about that.
ViperSmith
Enthusiast
Then again, porsche 911 GT_ models sell for quite a premium. I venture to bet SRT is waiting to see what the base models do before scaling out the ACR.
Viper Grenade
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Hahaha. I'm so happy I cancelled my 2013. What a waste that would have been. I am going to see what the next C7 Z06/ZR1 does. If I stay Viper its going to be a TT G2.
FastMatt
Enthusiast
In the HP wars Viper is fighting a loosing battle keeping the car N/A. If they want to keep up, the motor is going to need to go to 10L or go FI like everybody els. Look at GM had the LS7 making 505 N/A hp, wanted to bring back the ZR1 they did not try and get 600+ hp out of the LS7 N/A they went to the LS9 and went FI. Add 8psi to the current Viper motor and it will be a 1000hp car and game over.
The gen 5 viper is making 1.25 hp/cid thats quite good for a most with 2v/cil and a smooth idle camshaft, and cats. The LS7 only makes 1.18hp/cid.
The gen 5 viper is making 1.25 hp/cid thats quite good for a most with 2v/cil and a smooth idle camshaft, and cats. The LS7 only makes 1.18hp/cid.
The bottom line on all of this comparo data so far is that the Chevy people have the SRT people on the defensive. SRT needs to reboot its way of thinking about marketing a bit and take actions that rapidly shift the burden of proof back to Chevy. If it were me, I would have brought a Gen V with a properly varified suspension set up with a track pack back to leguna ASAP with the appropriate witnesses and taken back the record. The burden would then shift back to Chevy and the debate going on here would be going on over there. The same thing could be done on the dyno issue. SRT says it bought a ZR1. Bring it to an independent dyno shop with a Gen V with the appropriate witnesses. Make sure both cars are set up on the dyno for the best results. Run the tests again and publish the results on twitter, Facebook, Jalopnik, etc. Corporations tend to move slowly. Sometimes TOO slowly. To me this is a no brainer strategy.
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