Factory supercharged V-10 in development?

[speedracervr4]

Multiple Srt 10 Ram guys have ran the remote turbo system (STS, not homemade) with ill effects. My neighbor had a remote turbo system (not homemade) on his Vette and once again it didn't end well. There's probably a reason no production car use them.

What 6 Second vette is using a remote system?

 

[The_Greg]

The science behind detonation transcends anecdotal evidence. If you have the correct timing, A/F ratio, and temperatures then you will run safely with the turbos mounted anywhere. You could put them on your roof if you wanted to.

Its likely that the reason they aren't used in production cars is because of the way engines are designed from the ground up with forced induction or not. Rarely can they be added in a production sense as an afterthought. There are slight draw backs to remotes such as increased lag/decreased response, so why would you design the engine with remotes from the ground up?

I'm not at all debating that the systems the people you mentioned caused the motors to fail, but I'm offering that it is probably more to do with the lack of supporting mods or an improper tune that caused it and not the physical location of the turbos with respect to the engine.

 

[Torquemonster]

The science behind detonation transcends anecdotal evidence. If you have the correct timing, A/F ratio, and temperatures then you will run safely with the turbos mounted anywhere. You could put them on your roof if you wanted to.

Its likely that the reason they aren't used in production cars is because of the way engines are designed from the ground up with forced induction or not. Rarely can they be added in a production sense as an afterthought. There are slight draw backs to remotes such as increased lag/decreased response, so why would you design the engine with remotes from the ground up?

I'm not at all debating that the systems the people you mentioned caused the motors to fail, but I'm offering that it is probably more to do with the lack of supporting mods or an improper tune that caused it and not the physical location of the turbos with respect to the engine.

Thank you. You are right.

There is no discernible loss of throttle response as 0.1 second is all it takes to get air from back to engine, but there is a slight increase in lag between NA and boost. On a small motor this is a problem for a street car - race cars can compensate. But with an 8L (or any American half decent V8) - it is not a problem when everything is matched. The remote mounts allow far better exhaust design which means less back pressure and pressure drop potential. With a decent race exhaust plus if the intake can be as well thought out - the gains in power and efficiency here help compensate for the distance as does a different Turbo A/R sizing. It is taylor made for a big engine, the problem is a decent intake tract with adequate clearance. But then the problem with a front mount is red hot hair dryers under your hood and very tight space for a good flowing exhaust. Turbos will work on manifolds but there is 10% power gains between a good log and proper race headers on a turbo, which as I said compensates the heat loss/distance.

 

[Torquemonster]

Multiple Srt 10 Ram guys have ran the remote turbo system (STS, not homemade) with ill effects. My neighbor had a remote turbo system (not homemade) on his Vette and once again it didn't end well. There's probably a reason no production car use them.

What 6 Second vette is using a remote system?

I am aware of failures but the reason is not because the turbos are remote. It is not location that hurts engines, but setup and tune. STS builds to a price, we used some of their stuff and threw out some of their stuff. Good people but like anything in the aftermarket, you trust blindly at your own peril.

One offs aside, remote mounts are relatively new and are by far the least popular set-up but they are now gaining as perceived shortcomings are found to be false or over-come. If SRT did one, it would not disappoint.

In truth, some cars would best suit a front mount where there is room for full race headers to the front, while others would suit behind the motor for the same reason. The only reason to mount them at the back is because it is not practical to place them under you - as that would be about the ideal spot.... though Mike Moran found a way and ran the worlds first 5 second pass for a turbo car

You must be registered for see images

Here's a quick remote mount

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYO4K1DqmlY

That held the world record for a while

Here's a fast one - GM was so impressed they allowed them to use their wind tunnel to make it better for next time

http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/vemp_1112_the_worlds_fastest_vette_rock_you_like_a_hurricane/viewall.html

 

[Paolo Castellano]

I am aware of failures but the reason is not because the turbos are remote. It is not location that hurts engines, but setup and tune. STS builds to a price, we used some of their stuff and threw out some of their stuff. Good people but like anything in the aftermarket, you trust blindly at your own peril.

One offs aside, remote mounts are relatively new and are by far the least popular set-up but they are now gaining as perceived shortcomings are found to be false or over-come. If SRT did one, it would not disappoint.

In truth, some cars would best suit a front mount where there is room for full race headers to the front, while others would suit behind the motor for the same reason. The only reason to mount them at the back is because it is not practical to place them under you - as that would be about the ideal spot.... though Mike Moran found a way and ran the worlds first 5 second pass for a turbo car

You must be registered for see images

Here's a quick remote mount

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYO4K1DqmlY

That held the world record for a while

Here's a fast one - GM was so impressed they allowed them to use their wind tunnel to make it better for next time

http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/vemp_1112_the_worlds_fastest_vette_rock_you_like_a_hurricane/viewall.html

Barry great posts!

I have a Gen 4 for which I am building a Twin Turbo system that would easily fit on the Gen 5! My proprietary cast manifold, gravity oil drain, 3 or less feet of piping from turbo to intercooler, 200 degrees of total bends turbo to throttle bodies..... Rear mount would work fine, but my setup would work better!

 

[V10lover]

Supercharged V10?? What a joke... lol :0

SRT cannot even put good tires in the new viper or either is a SCT being offered at the moment.

Positive displacement superchargers will never fit under the hood + the x cross brace made things even worse . The viper would need at least a 3.4L one. Centrifugal and turbos would be the ONLY option.

Wanna a blower? do what I did and go get a FORD or GM, Those two companies at least respect their customers and had their ECUS unlocked for us. That is why I bought a FORD and am having a blast with it. Much more fun to mod than any viper out there..... viper is gonna be basic bolt ons only.. NOT worth the $$ IMO..

 

[V10lover]

Maybe they will put the new 3.3tvs on top.

IMPOSSIBLE

 

[V10lover]

I would be interested in seeing SRT/Mopar offer a complete bolt-on supercharger system for the Gen 5. Even if it were rated for 100-125 hp, with a conservative tune, it would sell like hotcakes.

Bonus points if they offer it as a RPO code option package. Or a dealership installed package.

Great idea.
Maybe the will start thinking about that in 10-15 years from now.

 

[V10lover]

Hasn't Ralph said, either on twitter or in person, that there will be no FI on this car?

EDIT: I also have been inside of Arrow within the last 6 months and didn't see any superchargers laying around, FWIW.

Correct. There is Nothing in the plans for this new car. Nothing. NADA.
Gen 2-3 still the best plataform if you want to mod your viper.

 

[V10lover]

If Chrysler follows through with a factory supercharger, it will likely be offered (if not standard) on all Vipers. I think the ACR is too small of a business case. I'm pretty sure they were testing something in the 750+ hp range in the last couple of years.

You probably will see a new ford GT kicking a$s before/IF you see that. I guarantee...

 

[FastMatt]

That hasn't even came out yet....

Well the current gen 5 cant even run with the C6 ZR1 so......

 

[FastMatt]

I would be interested in seeing SRT/Mopar offer a complete bolt-on supercharger system for the Gen 5. Even if it were rated for 100-125 hp, with a conservative tune, it would sell like hotcakes.
.

640hp motor + supercharger adding 100hp? whats it going to run 2psi of boost?

 

[VENOM V]

Supercharged V10?? What a joke... lol :0

SRT cannot even put good tires in the new viper or either is a SCT being offered at the moment.

Positive displacement superchargers will never fit under the hood + the x cross brace made things even worse . The viper would need at least a 3.4L one. Centrifugal and turbos would be the ONLY option.

Wanna a blower? do what I did and go get a FORD or GM, Those two companies at least respect their customers and had their ECUS unlocked for us. That is why I bought a FORD and am having a blast with it. Much more fun to mod than any viper out there..... viper is gonna be basic bolt ons only.. NOT worth the $$ IMO..

You seem pretty bitter. Let it go. I'm glad you didn't buy a Viper. Please go join a Ford forum so you can talk about how inferior those idiot Viper owners are with their archaic pushrod V10s.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Wouldn't it make sense for SRT to actually get the Gen V Viper properly setup first, before they hypothetically turn to any kind of FI application? To expect them to FI now is like asking a baby that just learned to say "Dada" to pronounce "pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis." And yes that is a real word. If it had 675hp "NA" with some MPSC or Trofeos and CCB's, SRT would have hit it out the park. Instead we have 3 losses to the old ZR1 and threads about it needing FI etc.

The fact that so many see FI as the only way for a brand new 8.4l car to compete speaks volumes imo. The cars haven't even been delivered to customers yet. The problem is clearly SRT's.

 

[Nitro187]

Keep in mind that the Corvette ZR1 engine, in a detuned state, has found its way into the CTS-V Cadillacs and the ZL1 Camaro. So Chevy invested the money and used the engine across multiple products. The Viper V10 is not used outside the Viper.

Doesn't mean they can't... they had a Viper powered Challenger, aka SRT-10 Challenger... and I'd be right on board if they sold one too... but instead they steered clear... why they chose not to sell it is beyond me. The option is there though.

 

[kdaviper]

Doesn't mean they can't... they had a Viper powered Challenger, aka SRT-10 Challenger... and I'd be right on board if they sold one too... but instead they steered clear... why they chose not to sell it is beyond me. The option is there though.

They did sell it. The Drag Pack Challenger comes with the v-10 from the viper, 2-speed transmission, stripped interior, etc. Only for offroad use though:{)

 

[chorps]

Wouldn't it make sense for SRT to actually get the Gen V Viper properly setup first, before they hypothetically turn to any kind of FI application? To expect them to FI now is like asking a baby that just learned to say "Dada" to pronounce "pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis." And yes that is a real word. If it had 675hp "NA" with some MPSC or Trofeos and CCB's, SRT would have hit it out the park. Instead we have 3 losses to the old ZR1 and threads about it needing FI etc.

The fact that so many see FI as the only way for a brand new 8.4l car to compete speaks volumes imo. The cars haven't even been delivered to customers yet. The problem is clearly SRT's.

Well the Gen V engine is pretty closely related to the Gen IV engine so this is where the sore spot is...

The Gen IV engine controller is locked down and without any factory help it is very limited in cheap mods.
Also the Gen V targeted everything around (some would say "but") the engine, and the engine upgrades weren't as radical as anticipated for a car that was last upgraded in 2008.

So adding forced induction to an engine that was really developed in 2008 isn't as radical as you'd suggest. There's a ton of refinement in the Gen V engine vs the Gen IV, but I think some folks were hoping for the 'knockout blow' in horsepower that the Viper is infamous for vs. its price/rivals. Forced Induction is a relatively inexpensive way to make those numbers in terms of engineering costs.

I understand that there are some people who aren't happy with the situation for Gen IVs, but others are really taking the boots to the Gen V for their own personal reasons that are likely related to the Gen IV issues. Losing the initial tests to the outgoing ZR1 just adds fuel to the fire for those folks.

Personally I'm happy with the Gen V, although I'm not certain I'd get one. This sort of feels like the Gen III coupe facing down the Z06 in 2005-2006. The Gen IV came down the pipe pretty quick after that. I'm thinking we're going to see a Gen VI in that 2015 revisions document that Fiat/Chrysler were bandying about, and that car will have another power bump.

 

[Jack B]

Almost everything you say is true, there is one possible clarification I would like to make, all the viper PCM's are "locked down". In addition, all the GM ECU's are "locked down". It is only when some aftermarket programmer gets serious and breaks the protection scheme that the PCM gets "unlocked" Examples: Gen 2 and Gen 3 vipers can be programmed with SCT and the VEC 2/3. For the GM cars it is HP Tuners and LS Edit. For the Fords it is also SCT. At one time all these controllers were locked or inaccessible, what SRT does with their controllers is no different than what GM does, it is the aftermarket that allows the tuning. In short, there was not enough of a Gen IV market for the companies like SCT to consider the use of R&D funds to crack that specific PCM.

As a side note, you can add or reduce the resistance in the IAT circuit of the Gen IV to do some minor tuning.

If the new vette uses the Bosch controller for their direct injection there will not be an open ECU for that car either, however, due to the volume it will not take long for HP Tuners to write codes for the new controller. I bought a Pontiac Solstice GXP turbo in 2008. That car had the Bosch controller, it took HP Tuners two years to crack that ECU. I believe a large percentage of the world's direct injection engines use the Bosch controller. GM and Bosch designed that ECU with max hp limit determined by the MAF sensor, that is how they locked that controller. HP Tuners wrote code for that ECU in about one year after introduction, hower, it took them an additional year to find that MAF limit.

Well the Gen V engine is pretty closely related to the Gen IV engine so this is where the sore spot is... The Gen IV engine controller is locked down and without any factory help it is very limited in cheap mods. Also the Gen V targeted everything around (some would say "but") the engine, and the engine upgrades weren't as radical as anticipated for a car that was last upgraded in 2008. So adding forced induction to an engine that was really developed in 2008 isn't as radical as you'd suggest. There's a ton of refinement in the Gen V engine vs the Gen IV, but I think some folks were hoping for the 'knockout blow' in horsepower that the Viper is infamous for vs. its price/rivals. Forced Induction is a relatively inexpensive way to make those numbers in terms of engineering costs. I understand that there are some people who aren't happy with the situation for Gen IVs, but others are really taking the boots to the Gen V for their own personal reasons that are likely related to the Gen IV issues. Losing the initial tests to the outgoing ZR1 just adds fuel to the fire for those folks. Personally I'm happy with the Gen V, although I'm not certain I'd get one. This sort of feels like the Gen III coupe facing down the Z06 in 2005-2006. The Gen IV came down the pipe pretty quick after that. I'm thinking we're going to see a Gen VI in that 2015 revisions document that Fiat/Chrysler were bandying about, and that car will have another power bump.

 

[chorps]

Ah yes, that is true, Jack.

I did take the idea to middle management at Chrysler [former SRT engineer] and he got in touch with one of the SRT engineers [both shall remain nameless]. We did text back and forth about it a bit, and their main concern was warranty issues (fraudulent/abuse claims against the engine).

I told him that using one of those unlocked controllers (since they could be tied to the VIN like the current controllers) should be a warranty voider on powertrain...he said they'd consider taking it upstairs.

So we might get some kind of 'help' from Chrysler proper on 'unlocking' the controllers for Gen IV and Gen V. Or a far more tuneable one than the current (Gen IV) Mopar one anyhow.