Thread: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

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  1. #1

    Default Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    They look the same with just some minor changes like hood, wheels, etc ... Why Dodge named them as Gen III and Gen IV?

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    The GEN IV may look the same but its a different car. For starters there's a new engine under that hood. 90 more HP. Different suspension. Different tires. All kinds of interior options.

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    Gen 4 guys get really irritated when you compare Gen 3 to Gen 4. I have a Gen 2 and yes Gen 2 is a combed thru Gen 1, many parts crossover. Same thing with Gen 3 and Gen 4. You can swap parts in and out. Some parts are improved, some are identical, basic platforms are the same. The line is blurred with Chrysler marketing that created these Gen numbers to breath life into the existing platform. Improved from Gen 1 to Gen 2 and then Gen 3 to Gen 4 absolutely yes. Ground up new cars in each Gen, definitely not. To answer your question, the cars look the same but have different performance numbers and handling characteristics. I would be proud to own either Gen 3 or a Gen 4.

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    There were a lot of revisions to the drivetrain even though the chassis remained mostly the same. I posted this in another thread, but I think it applies here:

    While the 2008 did get a slight engine displacement increase, it is more than that - a cam-in-cam variable valve timing system is probably the most significant, and is what accounts for a good portion of the HP increase over the Gen III (2003-2006) Vipers. The rev limit has been bumped from 6,250 to 6,400 RPMs, the heads were revised with better flowing intake and exhaust ports, a revised intake manifold with dual throttle bodies (which are drive-by-wire instead of cable driven), and the oil pump/pan configuration was modified with a swinging pick-up tube to eliminate oil starvation in long sweepers. The exhaust on the Gen III had a cross-over pipe that connected the two sides - on the Gen IV, that is gone. This along with some better heat shielding helps keep the cabin cooler. Cooling fans were hydraulically operated on the Gen III, and are electric on the Gen IV. The valve covers and PCV system have been altered as well, and the covers now incorporate the ignition coils onto the covers themselves. The suspension is largely unchanged, outside of some minor tweaks to the spring rates (and maybe a slight valving change to the shocks, not sure on that one though). Run-flats are no longer the OEM tire, thus the tire inflation kit in the trunk. The transmission is now a TR-6060 instead of the T-56...the TR-6060 is a much beefier unit with thicker gears and better synchros that make shifting smoother. The differential is now a GKN Visco-Lok instead of the Hydra-Lok...the Visco-Lok doesn't seem to be as highly regarded as some of the other differentials out there (OS Giken, Wave-trac, etc.), but also doesn't seem to be as problematic as the early Hydra-Loks were. The clutch is a twin disk unit instead of a single to handle the extra HP/TQ. I think that covers the major stuff.

    The generation thing isn't a direct correlation to something like a Vette where the jump from C4 to C5 was huge, and C5 to C6 was pretty decent too, but there were enough changes (mainly the huge HP bump) to warrant calling it a different generation in the Viper world.

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    I've owned both.
    The Gen III was fast. The Gen IV is hyper-fast.
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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by vettestripes View Post
    They look the same with just some minor changes like hood, wheels, etc ... Why Dodge named them as Gen III and Gen IV?
    A simple Google search would have answered your question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRT_Vip...2.80.932010.29

    Extra 0.1 liter, extra 90 HP, extra 35 ft-lb of torque, a better limited slip diff, some suspension changes to accommodate the lack of run flats, etc.

    The cars look very similar but lots of changes you can't see. I happily paid extra to get a Gen 4 instead of a Gen 3 for those reasons.

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    The Gen 4 and 5 are more closely related than the Gen 3 to 4 motor-wise.

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    There are several threads discussing this.
    Here is one: http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/...h-Viper-to-buy

    In short, it's more than just minor changes.

    My reply in that thread:

    As a current 08 owner, (never owned but did cross shop 06 coupes) Everything I have read here people who have stepped up to a Gen IV from Gen III have nothing but great things to say in the improvements. It's not just HP and hood. Rear end, oiling of the engine, exhaust, the ride, transmission, clutch etc. I guess from my point if you want a stock/relatively stock car 08+ is the way to go. If you want 700+ HP, slap a supercharger on or tune the PCM etc Gen III is the way to go. I have always been a tuner, I like to upgrade, but I figured cost of a low mileage 06 + upgrades to improve to 08 territory I would have spent thousands more than buying the 08 from the get go and I didn't see myself needing 1000+ hp (however I do dream of it LOL)
    I think it depends what you want to do ultimately. A gen 4 can cost as much as $20,000-$30,000 more than a Gen 3. (figure high 30s on the low side of an early Gen III and high 60s/low 70s to even 80k on the high side of a Gen IV non ACR)

    Is a Gen IV 30k better? That is for you to decide.

    If you want a coupe, that limits you to 06+.
    You wont find an 06 coupe in the 30s, even 40s can be tough so the difference between a Gen 3 coupe and Gen 4 coupe could be as low as $5-10k if you really want to compare. (figure a good deal low 60s on Gen IV to anywhere in the 50s for a 06 coupe)

    So if you're concerned about a coupe, Gen IV can only be a "bit more" where the roadsters can be all over the place since they made them from 03-10.

    IMO early SRT-10s are a bargin in this market!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    Maybe Dodge was just trying to lure ppl into same old car with new name. I'm a Vette guy and will get a Gen V or maybe Gen II soon. For C5, C5 Z06 got more horse power and different suspension, etc ... but it was still C5. For C6, Z06 and even ZR1 were still C6.
    So pretty much, this Gen V would be actually Gen III
    Last edited by vettestripes; 02-27-2013 at 09:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    vettestripes said: "...Why Dodge named them as Gen III and Gen IV?"

    Did the Gen I, II, III, etc. designations REALLY come from Dodge???

    I may be wrong, but I thought that was initiated more in the Viper owner circles, then loosely accepted (adopted ??) by Dodge. Does it matter ??

    Others can elaborate.
    Last edited by Steve-Indy; 02-28-2013 at 05:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    :-) :-) :-) :-)
    Last edited by vettestripes; 02-27-2013 at 11:42 PM. Reason: The originator has deleted the post so I just delete mine as well

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    I don't know if I would call it the "same old car"...that it shares a frame and most of the suspension shouldn't trigger a response that it is a tired, out-dated design, but moreso that they did a good enough job the first time around that there wasn't much they could improve upon, at least not within their budget.

    The Viper doesn't have the same amount of development $$$ that the Vette guys do...they just don't move the same number of cars, so they can't recoupe huge investments. GM uses variants of the SB chevy engine in many of their platforms...the Viper engine only goes into one (or a few if you count the SRT-10 Ram and the drag pack Challenger).

    At the end of the day, it is what it is. Although the Gen V shares most of the suspension and basic drivetrain as the Gen IV, it did get a new frame, and a vastly improved interior. Not as drastic as what the GM guys are doing with C6 vs. C7, but still...

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by vettestripes View Post
    For C5, C5 Z06 got more horse power and different suspension, etc ... but it was still C5. For C6, Z06 and even ZR1 were still C6.
    One difference between the Vette and Viper nomenclature is that the base model C6 existed at the same time as the GS, Z06, and ZR1. You could no longer buy the 2006 specification Viper in 2008, updates were made across the board. Viper also had ACR during those years which is the “Z06” or “ZR1”. If it makes you feel better just call them out by year, but it is just easier to say Gen III and Gen IV than 2003-2006 and 2008-2010 IMO.

    There are many differences between Vipers and Vettes, nomenclature being one of them. I for one am happy there is diversity – the world would be very boring otherwise.

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by vettestripes View Post
    They look the same with just some minor changes like hood, wheels, etc ... Why Dodge named them as Gen III and Gen IV?
    Maybe because Viper is a car ahead of its time and with timeless exterior unlike the mass market Corvette that changes little underneath while gains new appearance to attract more mass buyers? Learn something about the subject before asking questions. Is 911 forum your next stop? Oh and yes, I have a C6 vette in case you wonder.

    Ironically enough, you did not even look hard enough to realize that the coupe version of Gen 3 and Gen 4 use Gen 2 rear design, including the tail lights. Viper owners like it this and it is just as fresh of a design as it was originally on Gen 2. If you are here to learn, learn and search before asking questions that are both ignorant and inflammatory.

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    I agree with TS. "Generation" changes are typically reserved for significant chassis and body changes--offering an upgraded engine and improved bolt-ons is not a generation change IMO.

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    .

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-Indy View Post
    vettestripes said: "...Why Dodge named them as Gen III and Gen IV?"

    Did the Gen I, II, III, etc. designations REALLY come from Dodge???

    I may be wrong, but I thought that was initiated more in the Viper owner circles, then loosely accepted (adopted ??) by Dodge. Does it matter ??

    Others can elabortate.

    Are you thinking of the "Chapter" DCX Daimler days? Sometimes the term used has mattered more than other times.

    That label didn't hold and the standard in reference with owners and press was "Gen _" with a variety of spellings like Gen 3 and Gen III both used.

    The engineers, designers, etc. identify with the internal labels. Like VGX for the 2003.

    We asked SRT which they would prefer as a forum label on the VCA site for the 2013 car and that's what is reflected here. There has not been any sensitivity to using the "Gen" label for many, many years and no one currently at SRT that I asked about this even recalled the "Chapter" label.

    The thing is, when some says the words "gen five" the spelling isn't defined. I expect that similar to past examples of use, both Gen 5 and Gen V are going to be seen around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Ferguson View Post
    ........The marketing and PR department are the ones who wanted to use Chapter 3, so the GEN ( which looks like a GM word) would be avoided.



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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    Thanks, Marv.
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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    Yes similiar but by all meens totally different Snakes. They share the same frame, body panels, basic suspension components, brakes and interiors but totally different engines, PCM's, transmissions, clutch kits, diff's and obviuolsy ACR option.. Gen 4 is definetly more refined and quicker.. Better to some but IMO just an evolution of what we like..

    Just my 2 cents worth.

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    Last edited by BAD BOYZZ GARAGE; 02-27-2013 at 10:12 PM.

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    I dont mind talking gen 1-5 with fellow Viper nuts. But for the general population IMO our VCA forum has it right: RT/10 & GTS, and SRT-10 Vert&Coupe.
    This is how the average person knows Vipers. Two generations. The older curvey ones and the newer non-curvey ones.

    Any time i run into a random person that is interested in my Viper and they say they have a friend with one, or they saw some other viper on the road some time ago, i want to know what Gen Viper they are talking about so i ask. The response has never been Gen3 or Gen4. They just say; well it was one of the newer ones, or the one that looks more like a vette...

    A major body style change is the main thing that warrents a new generation lable with all other American cars so I think the Viper should follow suite.
    Vette, Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, All had several different engine options for each year sometimes overlaping generations. When you talk about em you say a Gen(X) whatever with a XXXci motor. Simple enough.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    This is all correct!!! From the look, nobody would tell it is Gen III or Gen IV. People can have a Gen III and changes out the hood and custom wheels. Even Viper enthusiast would not be able to tell what gen it is!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dom426h View Post
    I dont mind talking gen 1-5 with fellow Viper nuts. But for the general population IMO our VCA forum has it right: RT/10 & GTS, and SRT-10 Vert&Coupe.
    This is how the average person knows Vipers. Two generations. The older curvey ones and the newer non-curvey ones.

    Any time i run into a random person that is interested in my Viper and they say they have a friend with one, or they saw some other viper on the road some time ago, i want to know what Gen Viper they are talking about so i ask. The response has never been Gen3 or Gen4. They just say; well it was one of the newer ones, or the one that looks more like a vette...

    A major body style change is the main thing that warrents a new generation lable with all other American cars so I think the Viper should follow suite.
    Vette, Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, All had several different engine options for each year sometimes overlaping generations. When you talk about em you say a Gen(X) whatever with a XXXci motor. Simple enough.

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    Each Generation is very different. Here is your quick guide to understanding the various generations of Vipers:

    Gen V:
    Lost to this car so it no longer matters. Wait for the Gen VI.


    Gen IV:
    Fastest car out there but has a big giant wing so it is a cheater car that doesn't count.


    Gen III:
    A lovely car made by Honda.


    Gen II:
    The red ones seem to be the most popular. That guy should be wearing his belt though.


    Gen I:
    Crude and unrefined. No windows or roof. Big motor.

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    That's funny! When people have to ask what my car is I tell them its an S2000 with a body kit, and they believe me.

    Quote Originally Posted by chorps View Post
    Each Generation is very different. Here is your quick guide to understanding the various generations of Vipers:

    Gen III:
    A lovely car made by Honda.


  23. #23

    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by djviper View Post
    I agree with TS. "Generation" changes are typically reserved for significant chassis and body changes--offering an upgraded engine and improved bolt-ons is not a generation change IMO.
    Totally agreed!

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    This forum is a wonderful source of information for those of us that are "bonkers" over these cars. Once in a while you have to think "c'mon man, aren't we picking nits here?"

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    Default Re: Why Gen III and Gen IV when they are the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by chorps View Post
    Each Generation is very different. Here is your quick guide to understanding the various generations of Vipers:

    Gen V:
    Lost to this car so it no longer matters. Wait for the Gen VI.


    Gen IV:





    Fastest car out there but has a big giant wing so it is a cheater car that doesn't count.


    Gen III:
    A lovely car made by Honda.


    Gen II:
    The red ones seem to be the most popular. That guy should be wearing his belt though.


    Gen I:
    Crude and unrefined. No windows or roof. Big motor.

    BTW chorps, you are a "tongue in cheek genious!"

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